[PearlJam]

This is an extremely sad incident, and nobody deserves to die like this.

Having got this out of the way, I see this thread as totally pointless. It should be closed.

It is just an excuse for armchair keyboard warriors to come and take sides. It is just an excuse for people on different sides of the political divide to take sides. It is an endless debate. One side will start from 54 days ago, then start from 2014, then the other side will go back to 2004, then to 1999, and then to 1949. Someone will say "instead of spending money on abc, we could have spent it on xyz.". Someone will accuse somebody else of being heartless. Someone will reply saying "what is the solution?" Someone will say that such things have been happening for ever, nothing new. Someone will say, so what, why didn't they anticipate this?

Isn't this pattern and aren't these arguements oh-so-predictable? I can exactly predict the summary of this thread, even after it reaches 100 pages.

People in power who are actually able to solve this problem, and could possibly do something about it, and neither going to come to team-bhp.com and get enlightened, nor have pangs of guilt seeing these comments. Or, something is already being done right now. I don't know. But this thread is not going to change it. Including my comment.

[DrPriyankT]

This whole incident was a sad, highly unfortunate incident. Not taking any political sides, this is the time no one wants to be in the shoes of the government authorities. Their situation currently is damned if you do, damned if you don't. Our country's government too has limited resources and its impossible to allot resources adequately for everything. We as private citizens too must do our bit for our underprivileged brothers and sisters.
We are all in this COVID-19 fight together.

[philipmathen]

Originally Posted by PearlJam

This is an extremely sad incident, and nobody deserves to die like this.
Having got this out of the way, I see this thread as totally pointless. It should be closed.

My first reaction was that i could not agree more. I am surprised that a lot of people seem to be advocating very extreme views, something that i have not seen in our community here. That alone was enough to agree with your comment.

But the more i thought about it, ours is probably the only place where we can have a reasonably civil discussion and critique our representatives. There are always options to report objectionable posts. There is no denying that it really hurts when these discussions occur in the backdrop of such a painful subject that forces us to hold up the mirror to ourselves. And right now I am not proud of the person staring back at me!

It is precisely because each of us feels so strongly that we should share our thoughts, but definitely not in the manner of some of the earlier posts. Public opinion and public discourse has taken a very ugly turn over the course of the last decade or so and every passing year the aim seems to be to hurt, rather than communicate.

I do not agree that the government can wash its hands off the situation. Like many hastily implemented policies, there will be huge misses. That is understandable. What is not, however, pardonable, as many have pointed out here, is being indifferent to the needs and fears of those who are trying to find their way in a society where all the odds are stacked against them. Once the plight of migrants had been highlighted, what and who stopped the governments from acting to help them, or to get them home safely. Is that too much to ask as a citizen? It is easy to blame the government for all our shortcomings, but in this instance, when even good samaritans are barred from stepping out, the government had to make arrangements to help them. They simply failed to do so. Wishing it away and calling it collateral damage, that simply will not stand. These people died needlessly, and their blood is on our collective hands as a society and as a nation.

[CarNerd]

Originally Posted by gkveda

Some people think that Government is responsible for anything happening in the country.

And some people think that the Govt is not responsible for anything happening in the country.

Originally Posted by gkveda

Why are we not thinking that we are responsible for our lives than anyone else. If I am careless to drive my car during covid situation and hit a tree to lose my life, how can I blame government?

Agreed that a person is responsible for his/her life than others but what if the Govt creates a situation that drives a person desparate? During demonetization, some people died while waiting to withdraw money from ATMs. Who is to blame here? Would they have died if there was no demonetization? Maybe not. But they died in a situation which was forced by the Govt.

Nobody will blame the Govt for a car crash. But imagine there is a highway with a divider and the Govt suddenly removes the divider. Now if there are accidents, who is to blame here?

I'm not blaming the Govt for its orders but the lack of proper planning and execution to implement those orders that result in such tragedies.

Originally Posted by gkveda

Some college student drinks poison due to love failure and it is not difficult to deduce the root cause to government failure. It has become a custom to blame government for everything and anything.

And some people die inhaling toxic gases leaked from a chemical plant which was in the centre of a city. Who is to blame here? For some, it has become a custom to defend the Govt for everything and anything. Nobody should do both.

Originally Posted by gkveda

Just because those 16 people lost their lives, in the urgency of sympathizing those lost lives or souls, one should not forget that it was their primary responsibility to protect themselves and it is not government who has to protect them.

What if I say that it is the primary responsibility of stranded Indians to protect themselves and not the Govt? Would you agree?

Originally Posted by gkveda

We send soldiers to the border to save the rest of the country. So, if some uncalled events happens, we can not say country or government is not working or they are responsible.

The main duty of soldiers is to protect the country no matter what. They know that and are given weapons and training. They are paid for their services. They don't go anywhere by themselves out of desparation. You can't compare labourers to soldiers.

We need to accept that whatever situation we are in is because of the Government's lockdown measure. The question is whether it was implemented properly taking different factors into account?

[turbo]

Originally Posted by CarNerd

And some people die inhaling toxic gases leaked from a chemical plant which was in the centre of a city. Who is to blame here? For some, it has become a custom to defend the Govt for everything and anything. Nobody should do both.

Is the government responsible for bringing the guilty to justice? Yes. Is the government responsible for the gas leak? No. Ofcourse not. Its LG that's responsible for the gas leak.

The main duty of soldiers is to protect the country no matter what. They know that and are given weapons and training. They are paid for their services. They don't go anywhere by themselves out of desparation. You can't compare labourers to soldiers.

As an Army personnel, I'm massively disappointed with the attitude that you civilians have towards us.
Agreed, the government gives us guns and a salary (which is slightly lesser than what we would make in the private sector, or at best at par, definitely not more). But does that make our lives worthless?
Oh okay, an army officer died, but so what. He was in the Army, he was paid to die. I couldn't care less, his salary was funded out of my income tax. Good riddance.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by turbo

As an Army personnel, I'm massively disappointed with the attitude that you civilians have towards us.
Agreed, the government gives us guns and a salary (which is slightly lesser than what we would make in the private sector, or at best at par, definitely not more). But does that make our lives worthless?
Oh okay, an army officer died, but so what. He was in the Army, he was paid to die. I couldn't care less, his salary was funded out of my income tax. Good riddance.

In my humble reading, you seem to have misinterpreted what the quoted member said.

People serving in the defence forces do so willingly and voluntarily, since India has no conscription. They are not there out of desperation, but out of a sense of duty and valour, both voluntary. It cannot and should not be compared to a desperate labourer who is forced to walk thousands of kilometres due to bad policies and dies as a result. If anything, anyone who points out 'soldiers lay down their lives' to justify migrants dying, is actually insulting the duty and sacrifice of the armed forces.

I am just another 'civilian' in that sense, but I do have serving and former members of the defence forces in my family, and some have sacrificed their lives for us as well.

[onkar1710]

Shocking for the collective conscience of the nation!

There can be no denial of the fact that the accentuating circumstances with respect to this ghastly occurence are far too stark to ignore.

The whole wide world wants cheap labour. However, when it comes to their welfare of the most basic kind, the kind of horror stories I have been reported to during this period, I shudder.

Systemic failure, wrong decisions and crass callousness are clear and present.

Let's call a spade a spade and not be too concerned about being politically correct to not speak out at all.

And even though such outbursts on this forum may not lead to actual government policy reorientation, the voice of humanity does get strengthened.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by JojyKerala

Well-explained and a perfect reply. Some people are just busy in defending the government that they have forgot how to show empathy with the migrants' plight. Somebody in one of the posts above called T-BHPians sympathizing with the migrants in this thread "whiners". Sorry I'm new here but is such name-calling allowed here on this forum?

I can't seem to PM you. If you find a post offensive, use the report button embedded in each post. The mods are very responsive and quite fair, which is why this forum has lasted all these years.

[DevilzzzzOwn]

Originally Posted by turbo

Oh okay, an army officer died, but so what. He was in the Army, he was paid to die. I couldn't care less, his salary was funded out of my income tax. Good riddance.

No No, my esteemed countryman. You might have misunderstood what was said.

Point was, the great soldiers serve their nation out of much more than a salary and some benefits.
Nowhere can the choice of a soldier be compared with that of a labour who works due to the hope of a better life for his and his loved one's life.

And again, nothing can compare to the ultimate sacrifice that all my brothers and sisters made and continue to make on the altar of freedom. Our Freedom!!

Eternally Humble Civilian - Gaurav

[smooth indian]

Originally Posted by CarNerd

The main duty of soldiers is to protect the country no matter what. They know that and are given weapons and training. They are paid for their services. They don't go anywhere by themselves out of desparation. You can't compare labourers to soldiers.

There are quite a few soldiers who join the army because it offers a stable pay, pension and other benefits. Given that the economy of the country wouldn't afford them such decent renumeration they are willing to take their chances with death. Of course a lot of people serve in the army for patriotic reasons and perhaps for most servicemen it is some combination of both.

With migrants it is not a black and white case either. Some migrants are quite desperate and migrate for survival. Other can survive without having to migrate but do so to get better pay and for a lot of them it is a bit of both.

So lets not try to pigeonhole people in both groups.

Originally Posted by CarNerd

We need to accept that whatever situation we are in is because of the Government's lockdown measure. The question is whether it was implemented properly taking different factors into account?

First and foremost we are in a lockdown because there is a pandemic which is on the verge of going out of control. The govt being the authority in place has declared the lockdown to arrest the spread of the virus. In many ways it is a war except that the enemy is a microscopic virus. It is given that the govt took all possible factors into accounts. It is just likely that they found that there weren't any easy options. We must also remember that we are a country of 1.3 billion and one of the densest populated country. With chronic underemployment, high income inequality and all other socio-economic issues, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that such unfortunate incidents can still happen, despite the best efforts of the govt. It must be note that the lockdown and other efforts of the govt at different levels are still work in progress. As such a fair judgement can only be done after the lockdown ends completely or after the whole crisis abates.

So lets spare a thought for the deceased but lets not push narratives prematurely.

[JojyKerala]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

I can't seem to PM you. If you find a post offensive, use the report button embedded in each post. The mods are very responsive and quite fair, which is why this forum has lasted all these years.

Thank you v1p3r!

Still finding my way around the forum. Maybe the PM function isn't working because I'm a Newbie? Not sure though. Thanks.

[Eddy]

Originally Posted by JojyKerala

Still finding my way around the forum. Maybe the PM function isn't working because I'm a Newbie? Not sure though. Thanks.

That's right. Here is the thread that explains the membership levels.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/annou...-benefits.html (Explanation of Membership Levels (Newbie, BHPian etc) & Their Benefits)

[saket77]

My first post here. Don’t want to get into any sort of political dangle. But all members should ponder upon it too:

1. We are all sad and really sorry for the lives lost due to this train accident. A lot of families have gone back years and lost irrecoverably.

2. Not siding with the government but have it been any government, they had to go for a sudden lockdown. I cannot see why members are not understanding a simple thing that if the lockdown wasn’t sudden, there would have been a surge in transport all across the modes. The entire purpose of imposing a lockdown would have been lost.

3. We cannot compare our situation with countries like Germany and all. We have a huge population compared to any other country and medical facilities cannot be ramped up in a a month’s time. We can only hope that we can spread the use of these medical facilities over a period of time rather than at once for all. Our massive illiterate and ignorant population makes matters worse. The worst are those who are literate, understand everything and still flout the rules without a valid reason. How do you handle this indiscipline which is a vast percentage of India’s population. Everyone’s chacha here is a vidhayak or a minister.

4. Most importantly I wish to underline the fact that if the lives that we are mourning are any different from the lives saved from the disease itself? The entire inconvenience, emotional drainage, and everything else the poor and everyone have to go through and combined with some lives lost as collateral damage of COVID, we should understand that these are the same lives that the government is trying to save. If everyone was allowed to roam and travel freely and the same poor (or rich) people would have contracted the virus and died, would it have been any different for the families? Agree that it is sad and unfortunate to have lost 16 lives this way but then failing as a society and government is a far fetched articulation in my opinion. Every single person working is trying to save the same lives, including the poor.

Thanks.

[kovilkalai]

I thought I would share the kind of stuff that would make migrants do what seems crazy to most of us. I don't think I would pin this on the elected guys. However, there is a general apathy that exists in our society and our bureaucrats generally have larger doses of it. Couple this with lack of empowerment down the chain and something like this will happen. I am sure this incident is not because someone wanted to mess with these migrants. It is more likely due to mixed signals from leadership - some top guy would have asked underlings to convince people to stay back and then forgot about it after the trains were started again (they were stopped for a couple of days in Bangalore).

Good intentions can do down the tube with bad execution.

https://www.deccanchronicle.com/nati...-in-lurch.html

[MBond007]

Originally Posted by Theyota

Many of our leaders and Group A civil services babus seem to have no clue about ground realities of our own people.

Trust me they know very well what the ground realities are. It is not the lack of information that makes them take decisions bereft of common sense, it is their intention. I wasn't surprised when PM Care fund was taken off the radar of CAG or when the grains meant for the underprivileged section of our society were pilfered by the middlemen to help some bureaucrats renovate the marble flooring in their palatial bungalows.