[humyum]

But I thought HAL was just not up for tasks like these and hence Rafael was taken away from it?

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

If I recollect, F-16 was offered to India for domestic production. Would it not have been better to take a proven aircraft and produce that locally instead of going startup?Ok, but isn't self-use is our priority? Down the lane, one can always pay royalties to the Lockheed or let them take orders and export and earn?

Some disadvantages of picking up F16IN:

- Restrictions on airbases from where they can be operated (because US forces have to be based there for monitoring end-usage of their fighter aircraft)

- PAF has been operating F16s from the past 4 decades

- Cannot integrate Indian missiles & bombs with F16s

- Foreign policy interference by USA (Eg: Do not buy weapons from Russia, Stop trade with Iran etc). When you buy fighter aircraft from US, their interference will go up exponentially

- Tendency to sanction their own customers (Eg: stopping support to Iranian F14's after Revolution, stopping delivery of F16s to Pakistan after they paid for it, sanctions on India after nuke tests etc)

[arun_kun]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

Going by bullishness of IAF towards Tejas platform and all that "Atma Nirbhar" stuff going on, I think we can say goodbye to MMRCA 2.0. After this order, IAF is likely to order Tejas Mark 2 with F/A-18 Super Hornet's engine and 7 ton payload.

Attachment 2108199

God bless Manohar sir for reviving the almost dead project. True patriot with some real stuff.

Orders are still for MK1A, MK2/MWF are still in design stage as far as I know.

And only big part which is till not "Atma Nirbhar" is engine which we still GE404. Even MK2/MWF is designed with GE414 engine.

Kaveri engine program is going no where and the Safran collab also turned out to be dud. Unless we invest big billions complete "Atma Nirbhar" is not seen in near future.

[norhog]

From what little I know about fighter aircrafts, now it is more about electronics packed in the plane rather than actual flying.
With aircraft tech reaching almost its pinnacle, it is increasingly less about how fast it can out climb opponents aircraft or tighter rate of turn. Flying is just a given.
What is important is what kind of sensors and radars are fitted.
Can it track a enemy jet beyond visual range.?
Can it locate the SAM heat signature again beyond visual range.?
Can it communicate with the squadron and divide tasks, like one aircraft scan forward, another scan aft one the left side and so on. This scanned data should be able to transferred between the planes in the group and the ground.
One plane can track a target but missile launched from another jet in the sortie group, by way of very high speed data communication between the planes.

So yes, we learnt to fly now, what is required is the electronic aspect. That needs developing.
For all we know, in a few years time these planes will come face to face in combat with planes without pilots.

[tazmaan]

This is a big boost for Make in India and I am glad Tejas has been cleared by IAF.

But I have apprehensions regarding ability of HAL to deliver them. The first batch of 40 Tejas's are yet to be delivered and there is no timeline in sight. God knows how long these will take. A small delay is expected but usually the delays are over many years which would make this deal useless. India would have to go for a desperate purchase in between again.

I hope I am proven wrong but that's HAL's track record under any government at the center.

[arun_kun]

Originally Posted by tazmaan

This is a big boost for Make in India and I am glad Tejas has been cleared by IAF.

But I have apprehensions regarding ability of HAL to deliver them. The first batch of 40 Tejas's are yet to be delivered and there is no timeline in sight. God knows how long these will take. A small delay is expected but usually the delays are over many years which would make this deal useless. India would have to go for a desperate purchase in between again.

I hope I am proven wrong but that's HAL's track record under any government at the center.

I think HAL's capability to scale is really worry. And good thing is that they are outsourcing some of the fabrication part to Private players. Like wings, core cockpit structure etc. Ideally HAL should be integrator not manufacturer. Hope they outsource all of the non-IP related stuff to private players and create a ecosystem for Aircraft manufacturing on the larger scale covering all sectors including civilian aircraft(wet dream i know).

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Ok, but isn't self-use is our priority? Down the lane, one can always pay royalties to the Lockheed or let them take orders and export and earn?

Why pay royalties if you can develop it yourself? The issue here is political apathy over three decades, nothing else.

Secondly, if everything has been developed yourself, you can sell to price conscious countries that do not need a full fledged armed onslaught, but a few and then these Tejas as a back bone.

Thirdly, even if the imported tech is made in india, there will be some bits that will not be allowed transfer. This i think V Narayan will be able to elucidate further.

All in all, this is a fantastic bit of news, i just loved seeing the Tejas on TV, it almost felt like watching my own car taking off from the garage. This is a feeling i am sure every Indian will testify to

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by blackwasp

One of the biggest defence deals in the Indian aviation field has got the go-ahead of the authorities. Tejas combat aircraft has 50% localisation and is not entirely Atmanirbhar as quoted earlier. Localisation can go upto 60% in the future.

This is not necessarily a bad thing. Other than the US and Russia, no country makes (or can make) fighters that are 100% localized though the French come relatively close. We live in a globalized world and even fighter jets are in the end global products. However, the capability that matters is the ability to actually design your own aircraft and ensure that it is fully functional and combat-ready (which Russia has barely been able to do since the collapse of the USSR, the Su-57 is underwhelming while the Su-35, Su-30, and Mig-35 are still modifications of soviet era flankers and fulcrums). Of course, national security dictates that we localize as much as possible in case of sanctions since no friend is permanent in geopolitics with rare exceptions but the process of indigenization is slow and our defense programs can't wait for that. So, achieving 50-60% localization is indeed a feat in itself and certainly nothing to be ashamed of.

[maddy42]

Hats off to Mr Manohar Parrikar for this deal to even get considered. A true Patriot and a true engineer to understand the need of the customer to also be a part of the development process.

I hope to see a day these fighters get exported.

Next on the list is the indian light combat helicopter. LCH or the desi apache would be a capable product which needs to be nurtured and see the end of the tunnel.

One last word to HAL - congrats. Please keep your word and maintain the timelines of this product and do not get swayed by political compulsions.

Maddy

Originally Posted by skanchan95

I also hope the Light Combat Helicopter & Light Utility Helicopter contracts too is fast tracked, especially the LUH when it now seems that the Ka-225 Hoodlum contract is going nowhere.

Could you share more light on the LUH product and the deal. We are stuck in a position of too many products under development and too little funds to spare. Also babu apathy.

Maddy

[VijayAnand1]

APJ sir's dream must come true. We can launch satellites into space, yet we don't have our own aircraft and engine. This must be realized soon, the sooner the better. Rather late than never. Great move to the MoD.

Cheers!
VJ

[anku94]

Originally Posted by arun_kun

I think HAL's capability to scale is really worry.

The production rate criticism is misinformed, albeit quite popular.

Production rate is more a matter of capacity/investment than capability/competence/efficiency.

One line can apparently churn 8-10 aircraft/year. HAL has two proper lines (and some ad-hoc facilities at a smaller scale).

Any number of lines can be created, but the ballpark number is a billion dollars/line for tooling etc (say somewhere between 0.5x-2x of that). Probably not the kind of investment that makes sense when the total order is 83 aircraft at $7B, and can be delivered in a 4 year production run.

For reference, the F-35 is being built at a rate of 100+/year, but also has an order book running into thousands.

Re: process improvements, they're happening.

Mk1 was built as a "boutique" product owing to first attempt at large-scale manufacturing of this complexity, and limited expertise among private manufacturers (while HAL has cut its teeth at assembly, production, retrofit/maintenance, rotorcraft development etc).

Tooling and process improvements is one major change with 1A. The airframe will be built in 4 modules by different private players, reportedly with modular wire harnesses etc. that can just be patched together during the final assembly at HAL.

An ecosystem of private manufacturers/engineering firms of all scales is being nurtured around Tejas, and will hopefully prosper as spinoffs and variants keep coming in. Very important, very interesting stuff going on in terms of industrial capability.

Originally Posted by maddy42

Could you share more light on the LUH product and the deal. We are stuck in a position of too many products under development and too little funds to spare. Also babu apathy.
Maddy

LUH is more or less ready, with IOC received and FOC on the cards for sometime this year. An order needs to come through though.

Re: product dev, one must appreciate the enormity of the task we've taken up (indigenization across all departments of defence supplies). This involves a staggering diversity of products - apparel/rations/vehicles/explosives/radars/missiles etc.

A lot of smaller programs are maturing after years (or decades) of protracted development, being operationalized, subsequent iterations being funded/developed/tested much more quickly (particularly missiles/radars). Plenty of institutional reforms can be (rightly) argued for, but largely, I do believe that we're "past the hump", and have developed a critical amount of capability that promises much smoother sailing for future programs.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by maddy42

Could you share more light on the LUH product and the deal.

The HAL built Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) was designed to replace older Cheetah/Cheetal & Chetak helicopters in service with Indian Army and Indian Air Force and is powered by a single HAL/Turbomeca Shakti engine(same engines that power the Dhruv). Externally it looks like a slightly scaled down & single engined version of the Dhruv (which used to be the ALH - Advanced Light Helicopter).


After an unfruitful & never ending saga(just like the MMRCA circus) of replacing the Chetak/Cheetah fleet, the Ka-225 Hoodlum was eventually selected to replace them(over Eurocopter's AS350B3 Fennec). It was to be manufactured under license by HAL at their facilities. But that deal is floundering for various reasons.

Side by side, the LUH has ben under development since 2008 by HAL. The LUH first flew in 2016.

In February 2020, the LUH received its IOC( Initial Operational Clearance). Final demonstration trials were done in September 2020 for the Army, which involved demonstrating operational capabilities at the highest altitudes of Siachen Glacier. The FOC is slated for 2021, which I hope is expedited because by all information available on open sources, the LUH did exceptionally well for the role it is meant for. The Tejas is doing well and will eventually spawn into more advanced & capable variants and I hope the LCH & LUH receives similar support from the armed forces and the government.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzZjXz7yh00

Originally Posted by maddy42

We are stuck in a position of too many products under development and too little funds to spare. Also babu apathy.

Agreed. Locally built machines being preferred over similar and foreign made products has gone on for far too long.

[srishiva]

Engineering problems most times requires massive investment, test and fail cycles to solve and develop IP. If the govt is committed to investment over long haul, I am 100% confident of what Indian engineers and companies can achieve. You cant expect to become a great technological power in a short time.

Kudos to the people who have shown confidence in this initiative and congrats to HAL.

[fhdowntheline]

The only bit I think is of concern is the GE 414 engine. There is a change of regime in the USA, and for any reason if the incoming dispensation views some issues as central to the relationship (Kashmir etc, given their VeePs views on the matter), then there could be sanctions on the engine supply. India must look at an alternative powerplant asap for future generations of aircraft. I dont see any public moves in this regard.

[dhanushmenon]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

Some disadvantages of picking up F16IN:
- Restrictions on airbases from where they can be operated
- PAF has been operating F16s from the past 4 decades
- Cannot integrate Indian missiles & bombs with F16s
- Foreign policy interference by USA
- Tendency to sanction their own customers

Very valid points. However, the biggest in my opinion is that F16s are outdated. Why should we go for an older version when we have better options available with better capabilities and modern system integration?
A Saab Gripen would be a much better option. If we can shell out a little more money, then the Eurofighter Typhoon presents a very arguable case. There are many other options; I just mentioned one which is almost comparable and another which is leagues ahead.