[srini1785]

Originally Posted by srvm

I for one, am scared of hydrogen powered buses and trains

This is fuel cell powered and not an ICE which directly employs hydrogen as fuel.

Originally Posted by srvm

Anyway, this is all off-topic and known to most people in the forum.

There are doctors, lawyers, architects, accountants and managers in this forum whose last brush with Chemistry was somewhere in 10th standard. So its better such topics are discussed.

PS : No offense to doctors, lawyers, architects, accountants and managers in this forum

[rascalangel]

Originally Posted by norhog

What is the source of HYDROGEN?
Request forum members in the know to reply.
Thank you.

I hope you were not being cheeky. >90% of Hydrogen is from fossil fuels (LNG and LPG).

[PJ1987]

Originally Posted by norhog

What is the source of HYDROGEN?
Request forum members in the know to reply.
Thank you.

I'm presently working in a Hydrogen plant. We produce Hydrogen mainly by Steam reforming Naphtha. I guess we can also use LNG to produce Hydrogen.

[Altrozed]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

I am perplexed why not electrify the network instead of deploying expensive hydrogen and expensive hydrogen fuel cells. Surely it will be cheaper in the long run and more efficient as well since there is no conversion from electricity to hydrogen to fuel cell to electricity again.

Smaller track line, Heritage routes, landslides, Developmental costs all add up in the gauge conversion. Kalka Shimla is NG line which travels via various tunnels and they have to be tunneled again to make way for BG.

The only BG ghat section( a long stretch ) is Visakhapatnam VSKP - Kottavalasa KTV - Araku ARK - Kirandul KRDL which is called as KK line.

[kadanaJ]

This seems like a good idea to have hydrogen infrastructure set up in an economical manner, where it already has a valid use-case.

Maybe one day, when hydrogen cars start appearing on roads, having the infrastructure already exist may make them more viable.

[norhog]

Originally Posted by rascalangel

I hope you were not being cheeky. >90% of Hydrogen is from fossil fuels (LNG and LPG).

Not really, sorry. My point is more like if H2 is not produced from wind or solar, and fossil fuels is used to make H2, the by products include Co and Co2. So in that case, why go through the whole process of making a H2 and then H2 train. Rather use conventional gas powered engines to improve emission.

Originally Posted by PJ1987

I'm presently working in a Hydrogen plant. We produce Hydrogen mainly by Steam reforming Naphtha. I guess we can also use LNG to produce Hydrogen.

Grateful if you can confirm if my knowledge is correct as stated above. What are the by products of making H2 from Naphtha.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by norhog

Not really, sorry. My point is more like if H2 is not produced from wind or solar, and fossil fuels is used to make H2, the by products include Co and Co2. So in that case, why go through the whole process of making a H2 and then H2 train. Rather use conventional gas powered engines to improve emission.

You are correct, H2 produced through SMR(grey H2) is more dirtier than directly using gas or diesel. In fact a latest study showed that even blue H2(where CCS(carbon capture and storage) is employed) is also dirtier than directly using fossil fuels. Currently >95% produced hydrogen is grey Hydrogen.

If we are using Hydrogen it should be green H2, the catch here is 50kwh of renewable electricity is required to produce 1kg of green H2. Why waste 50kwh to produce hydrogen, use it directly to power an EV.

There are many industries which need to convert to green H2, hydrogen production is the cause for 2% of global carbon emissions, adding vehicles to an existing problem is not a smart idea.

Anyways since this is a small project, railways will quickly realize the per km cost not sustainable, people not willing to pay double the ticket costs.

[neerajku]

This is coming so soon. Remarkable, always sounded like the stuff of science fiction. Hope it is safe and can do long runs. It will revolutionise railway and road transport very quickly.

[anvay]

Between hydrogen vs Electric in vehicles, I feel Hydrogen fuel cell has a much better use case for marathon runs such as trains/ trucks/ intercity bus. Economically there will be a cutoff point where instead of directly storing electricity in Li-ion for a trip, storing in Gasoline (call it hybrid) or Hydrogen( Fuel Cell) will be profitable.

Again, gut feel not facts.

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by TusharK

Railways Minister Ashwini Vaishnaw has announced India’s first hydrogen-powered train.......

We will all be watching developments keenly. Specially the hygrogen-on-tap availability. There is a good deal of noise regarding the relative efficiency of hydrogen in FC engines as compared to use of hydrogen directly as fuel in IC engines. Apart from the infrastructure difficulties of transport and storage. The fuel cell proponents are pushing their wagon for all its worth as of now, since there does not seem to be much going on in the IC engine front.

[rascalangel]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

Anyways since this is a small project, railways will quickly realize the per km cost not sustainable, people not willing to pay double the ticket costs.

It may be feasible only where the lines cannot be electrified due to terrain etc. Best bet for de-carbonizing railways is already taking place with electrification. We just need to set up a few 10's of nuclear power plants.

[Whiplash7]

Toyota has an article on their website describing how they handle the safety aspect of storing Hydrogen in the Toyota Mirai

https://blog.toyota.eu/safety/hydrogen-is-that-safe/

[ruzbehxyz]

The first trial run of the train-set (Self Propelled Hydraulic Multiple Unit) on the Kalka-Shimla Heritage Railway track failed. During the trial, the train-set stood 100 meters ahead of Kalka Railway Station.

After this, the railway called a technical team and investigated. It may be noted that there is a plan to run a special train on the Kalka-Shimla heritage railway track at a speed of 28 kilometers per hour.

RDSO (Research Design and Standards Organisation) team has arrived from Lucknow to conduct its trial between Kalka and Shimla.

The train-set will be run up and down from Kalka to Shimla for trial. The empty train-set from Kalka to Shimla will run at a speed of 20 km per hour.

Trial will be done between Shimla and Kaithlighat at a speed of 20 to 28 km per hour. The trial of the train-set will continue till the month of March. RDSO Lucknow team will submit its report to Railway Board after completion of trial.

Source: https://himtimes.com/shimla-train-se...y-track/?amp=1

[SKC-auto]

^^what kind of train is this? Not reported if this is a hydrogen train.

Also, BEV trains seems to be better solution than Hydrogen trains.

https://www.railtech.com/rolling-sto...s/?gdpr=accept

[ads11]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

^^what kind of train is this? Not reported if this is a hydrogen train.

Also, BEV trains seems to be better solution than Hydrogen trains.

https://www.railtech.com/rolling-sto...s/?gdpr=accept

Interesting. So basically these trains run on battery back up for the track segments lacking overheard lines. Very practical compromise on paper. Saves the cost of full line electrification, especially in difficult terrain, so could present a very useful solution for a lot of the remote sites in India.

Is this implementation in Germany the first such instance? I wonder if some of the domestic EV know-how could be leveraged towards a home grown solution to BEV trainsets. Only concern is the cost, I guess only relying on batteries for parts of the route helps limit how much battery back up you need to build in. Must be a sliding scale.