[Arun_S]

I have pretty limited knowledge, this is what i observed from Indigo and Southwest.

Running a airline needs lot of conviction to lower cost always.

Ex: In Indigo, you keep on hearing it is your airline help it to keep it clean, this in turn has helped it faster turn around time at the gates. It is small thing but it helps in operational performance.

I agree DGCA is a problem, but they alone can't be blamed. The Indigo owners didn't have deep pockets but they were able to build just it through sheer conviction and the knowledge of the industry they had.

The Wadias have the money but i feel they were not committed, take Tata they purchased Air India they are investing to turn around the product.

[mmxylorider]

The time is ripe for Tata to acquire goFIrst. They are bleeding for narrow bodies specifically the A320 which is what goFirst operates. Add to it, the recent big order and the clout is in place to get things resolved.

AI gets handed over ME and near Asia slots and customer base to augment AI express (which unfortunately is a B737 shop)

[Comrade]

I am no expert and don’t want to sound dumb but is there potential for RIL to enter this industry? Feels like with it’s deep pockets, they call easily buy out the minnows and build the strong third player in the industry. They would have access to their own ATF (does it benefit?), and can have their way about policy changes.

Edit: My comments are just based on how RIL is bringing true competition to industry after industry including mobile communication, fiber broadband, ecommerce, retail etc. They are necessary evil than incompetent good.

[Venkatesh]

Official statement, Go First flights until 9th May are cancelled.

[AirbusCapt]

Originally Posted by WD-42

While G8 might not have been the best run airline, and the owner/promoters did the professional managment no favours, I don't think we can absolve P&W either.
.

A disclaimer: I am not an expert in this issue, but as an industry person, I do have a fair understanding of what us going on in this case.
The geared turbofan engine by P&W is actually a revolutionary idea in terms of sustainable and fuel efficient operations. The issue within this engine is the complex metallurgy of fused/mixed alloys in the compressor blades. Under certain conditions these blades shatter or develop cracks thereby grounding the engine. The mean time between failures here is high enough to affect operational costs of the airline.
In India only two airlines use these engines, indigo and goair. Now indigo has a fantastic contract (thanks to their good homework) where in P&W pays for a new engine, the loss for time and money that the airplane is on ground. Hence indigo suffers minimally with 35 aircraft grounded for now.
Goair I believe didn't have the foresight to sign a good contract, and as far as the inside news goes, they skipped on crucial guarantees and mantainance contracts to skimp on costs (akin to buying a range rover and skipping extended warranty).

The engine issue is more of an eyewash. Post covid this airline never recovered and was poorly funded by the Wadias. Indigo for example burned through almost 10,000 crores of cash reserves to maintain their operations during 2020-22. Goair spend hardly a 10th of that. Moreover the wadias were very unethical with their team, didn't pay employees anything during the lockdown, post lockdown paid only as per actual work done. The smaller vendors like cab operators, the office stationery folks, uniform makers etc have crores of pending bills that goair didn't pay.
Hence I tend to believe in Pratt saying that almost a million dollars of paid work is unpaid by Go.

Pratt has been honouring all the contacts with IndiGo as per the terms, so why would they target Go?

[V.Narayan]

The best posts on this thread are from Member AirbusCapt. Post #19 and #35 say it all in as precise a manner possible. Thank you @AirbusCapt.

All,

Having dealt with both Go First and P&W extensively over long periods of time I would toss my sympathies towards P&W. In years we never experienced P&W cutting corners even on the spirit of the contract even though we were one of their hundreds of vendors. They are very conscious that their quality is a function of their vendors and customers. Go First & Indigo the difference is as follows - Indigo negotiates very hard on real points and then stays with it. Go First only negotiates on nominal cost and is oblivious to all other leakages in the contract that go against them. Penny wise pound foolish. Indigo I always went to the table myself. Go First my boys took care because in any case their depth of negotiation was so shallow. Massive gap in calibre of leaders at both places.

What will be of interest is what the Ministry does about protecting customers and ensuring adequate flights. Tata and Indigo and Akasa if they are ready need the routes and the pilots in the main. They don't need the hassle and liability of taking over Go First. The aircraft can come from many sources.

Originally Posted by Newtown

But sir, was it not mandated by the FAA that P&W needed to replace the stage 3 blades of the LPT on the PW1127GA-JM? What I am unable to understand is whether this was done or not to the G8 fleet. Globally I was of the understanding that this was addressed, and things were business as usual now.

I don't know the details. Sorry. This might have been one of the modifications notified but I believe the issues are more complex.

On a separate note I believe merging Air India with its legacy baggage with Vistara which is just coming of age and giving good customer services is a idea that is not in the interests of the public. Unfortunately, I don't see the Govt standing firm on this.

[Venkatesh]

Originally Posted by Venkatesh

Official statement, Go First flights until 9th May are cancelled.

Now extended until May 12.

[GTO]

All said & done, I'm just glad that the Wadias didn't do a "Vijay Mallya" by continuing to throw good money after bad. The writing was on the wall. Whether due to their own limited management skills, family infighting, fierce competition or the business environment, Go First was in trouble since a while. Vijay Mallya lost his family jewels, companies, net worth, freedom & reputation in Kingfisher Airlines.

While the Wadias have also lost a lot, they are still left with a lot. Sometimes, businesses don't work out. Cut your losses and move on.

They should have treated their employees better though. I feel terrible for those who lost their jobs in this environment and the hand-to-mouth staff members. They are the biggest sufferers in such bankruptcies.

[WD-42]

Originally Posted by AirbusCapt

Post covid this airline never recovered and was poorly funded by the Wadias.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The best posts on this thread are from Member AirbusCapt. Post #19 and #35 say it all in as precise a manner possible. Thank you @AirbusCapt.

I do not disagee with both of your assesments that the poor leadership at the top of G8 was the cause of the downfall.

All I'm saying is;
The fuel drums were primed and ready for the explosion, the P&W issue was the matchstick that set it off.
or to go with a more traditional adage it was the last straw that broke the camel's back.

The piling of fuel ready for it to explode was caused by the poor leadership.

The P&W match is setting fires elsewhere, except they aren't large enough to consume whole airlines because those are either more professionally run, have better contracts holding P&W accountable, or are govt subsidised and can take the loss.

Originally Posted by AirbusCapt

Goair I believe didn't have the foresight to sign a good contract, and as far as the inside news goes, they skipped on crucial guarantees and mantainance contracts to skimp on costs (akin to buying a range rover and skipping extended warranty).
.
.
.
Pratt has been honouring all the contacts with IndiGo as per the terms, so why would they target Go?

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Indigo negotiates very hard on real points and then stays with it. Go First only negotiates on nominal cost and is oblivious to all other leakages in the contract that go against them. Penny wise pound foolish. Indigo I always went to the table myself. Go First my boys took care because in any case their depth of negotiation was so shallow. Massive gap in calibre of leaders at both places.

Both of you gentleman state that IndiGo's power by the hour (PBTH) contract is more iron clad than Go's, which I have no doubt about, given the calibre of the leadership at both places. Would either of you know what the delta in operating cost per hour is between the two contracts? Unless the delta was significant it made no sense for Go to drop those protections, just trying to understand what that cost delta might have been, or did they not even bother to think/consider these protections?

On the reverse side, R-R is struggling because they pioneered the PBTH contracts and are now stuck with little revenue from the pandemic times when most aircraft were grounded.

Originally Posted by AirbusCapt

The mean time between failures here is high enough to affect operational costs of the airline.

Any idea what the MTBD, IFSD rates, and Dispatch reliability rates at G8 were? Just trying to understand how bad the P&W situation was at G8 compared to other airlines.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

In years we never experienced P&W cutting corners even on the spirit of the contract even though we were one of their hundreds of vendors. They are very conscious that their quality is a function of their vendors and customers.

Both of you gentleman have covered the commercial aspects w.r.t. Go,

Having been on the engineering side of industry myself, and knowing people who work at all the organisations in discussion here I'd like to share my perspective on the engineering side (not countering your perspectives, just adding some wrt the engineering side):

The engineering side at P&W leaves a lot to be desired these days, lots of engineering churn, lots of managment churn, low pay, terrible hours, no clarity of goals. P&W was the unloved forgotten child at UTC, and tossed to Raytheon, and only valuable for the F135 and F119 programs. Add to that, they're having titanium shortages (thanks to Russian sanctions) and are prioritising the available titanium for the F135 production, rather than for spares for commerical engines. That being said airlines worldover have been complaining about lack of GTF spares since it was introduced, and the situation hasn't changed over the last decade.

The GTF has been plagued by issues since launch, off the top of my head I can recall:
1. Fan to casing tolerance issues
2. Fan blade issues
3. Oil seal issues
4. Combuster lining issues. India specific problem, due to the pollution and dusty environment, with P&W themselves admitting they should've tested more in India.
5. LPC issues (PW1500G)
6. LPT issues (PW1100G)
7. Power limiting Airworthiness directive; can't be used in hot n high, or above 94% N1.
Numerous other ADs that I can't recall right now.

PWs from the JT9 to the 4000, 6000 have always had worse dispatch reliability and after sales support than the CF6s, 211s, or Trents, which has literally had them booted out of the top end of the market. None of the widebodies launched in the last 15 years offerred P&W as an option:
787 - GE GenX & R-R Trent 1000
A350 - R-R Trent XWB
747-8 - GE GenX
330NEO - R-R Trent 700

Only the A380 had the GP7000, and even there most of the work was by GE, and they took only the reliable bits from the Pratt and put it in a scaled down GE90.

Of the narrowbodies:
737Max - CFM Leap
C919 - CFM Leap
ARJ - CFM CF34
A320NEO - PW1100 & CFM Leap, but most of the P&W customers have all moved to Leap.

Of the expensive BJets:
Globals Expresses, Citations, Challengers, Legacys, are all on either R-Rs BR700s or GE Passports. The G400/500/600s and Falcons are on PWs but those are PWC; PW Canada, whole different story.

P&W has only barely managed to keep it in the bottom end of the narrowbody market on the CSeries & E2 Jets, and even that market is regretting giving them a chance.

Even the F-14, 16, and now the 15 have had their PWs replaced with GEs.

I strongly suspect that once even that low end of the market is fed up and stops giving them a chance they'll become a purely military engine maker, leaving the commercial market to GE, R-R, Safran etc. Which is further supported by their sale to Raytheon.

An analogy closer to home for the car enthusiasts on the forum, P&W is a bit like that snooty carmarker that comes to India and refuses to create a local product or tune an international product well for the local market, dumps some old has been design completely stripped of features in the name of fuel economy from foreign markets, and expects it to succeed with barely enough after sales support, and then blames the customers for not buying the stuff they're peddling.

[tanbeamer]

From what I see there's been some poor planning and execution right from 2005. IndiGo came after GoFirst in 2006 and by 2011 they had more than 100 aircraft. And it is after having these 100 or so aircraft that they started international ops.

GoFirst started international operations very late. I think as late as 2018. In a competitive space like this, that's a major disadvantage.

Rest I hope they start flying again.

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by WD-42

Having been on the engineering side of industry myself, and knowing people who work at all the organisations in discussion here I'd like to share my perspective on the engineering side (not countering your perspectives, just adding some wrt the engineering side):

The engineering side at P&W leaves a lot to be desired these days, lots of engineering churn, lots of managment churn, low pay, terrible hours, no clarity of goals. P&W was the unloved forgotten child at UTC, and tossed to Raytheon, and only valuable for the F135 and F119 programs. Add to that, they're having titanium shortages (thanks to Russian sanctions) and are prioritising the available titanium for the F135 production, rather than for spares for commerical engines. That being said airlines worldover have been complaining about lack of GTF spares since it was introduced, and the situation hasn't changed over the last decade.

Its interesting to get the engineering view of PW. To me at least, growing up as an aviation enthusiast, Pratt and Whitney were the quintessential aircraft engines, powering almost all the the early age jets with their JT 3/8 series and then the JT9 and so on. RR and GE were more of conglomerates themselves. Sad that their competence as an engine maker is declining.

[WD-42]

w.r.t. Go Air

They've had to do 510 engine changes, on a fleet of ~54ish airplanes. That comes to about ~9.5 engine changes per airplane, in the last 6-7 years.
https://www.flightglobal.com/engines...153125.article

To date, the carrier has “been required to undertake 289 engine changes and 221 engine swaps: a total of 510 engine removals”, it said

Engine changes involve replacing failed turbofans with spares, while swaps involve replacing failed engines with powerplants taken from already grounded jets.

For the car folks on the forum, we've all seen forum posts on the front page from anguished owners complaining about engines having to be replaced on their Harriers, Nexons, Compasses etc. and how their cars have been out of comission for ages in the workshop. In most of those cases the engines once replaced have been largely trouble free. Imagine if your brand new airplane required engine changes 9-10 times, in 7 years! Can you imagine the down time, and how long it would be in the workshop?

Now if your car was in the workshop for an engine change and

• You were working from home mostly and didn't have to commute, not having your car would be at most a minor inconvenience
• If you were a doctor, lawyer or someone who HAD to commute to work, not having your car would be a major inconvenience.
• If you were a business man with interests in different cities that you used your car to commute to, it would be a massive pain in the arse.
• If your car or let's assume it was a truck was an integral part of your business, say a transport business, and it was in the workshop for an engine change, you wouldn't be able to earn your income, or to keep commitments to clients and deliver goods, you would have to either buy a spare car/truck or rent/lease one until your own car/truck was ready; a massive unnecessary expense.

Twenty-seven of its 54 A320neos were grounded, leaving the airline with sufficient jets to operate 1,390 weekly flights – 40%

27 out of 54 planes grounded with engine issues. So if half your fleet is grounded you have to have double your fleet size just to be able to keep up customer commitments. Each of these A320's costs on the order of a $100MM so, or ~80ish MM with discounts, you are looking at another $2-2.7 Billion to buy or a few hundreds of millions in lease charges. But then there are no planes available to lease because, all the lessors have no planes left because half of their fleets are also grounded because of the same engine issues.

Go's total debt? ~$800 Million
https://www.reuters.com/business/aer...ng-2023-05-02/

I wouldn't be shocked if a large part of the loss was caused by the P&W issues, with the remaining being from management issues.

_____________

w.r.t. P&W

Got some more info from folks in the industry

Some forwarded pics showing entire last stage of the turbine missing from a few of the engines, can't share here since it came from non-public sources.

Apparently Airbus folks have been frustrated with P&W since the begining of the A320NEO production because of the following issues:

• In the first few years of production, engines were almost always 2-3 months late. So Airbus was building airplanes that were essentially gliders and then hanging 5 ton concrete blocks from the wings (otherwise the airplane would be imbalanced and sit on it's tail), and parking them until the engines were received and could be installed. Airlines were not happy with getting gliders at delivery instead of the airplanes they ordered, and P&W was just keeping mum and not responding to the airlines who were taking out their ire on Airbus. Car analogy, the Tata Harrier uses a Fiat Multijet-II engine, imagine if Tata built a few thousand Harriers/Safaris and didn't have engines from Fiat/Jeep to put in, and so had to park them outside for 3-4 months until they got the engines, meanwhile customers who booked the cars are either cancelling or yelling at Tata.
• Even now P&W isn't responding properly to customers, and customers are reaching out to Airbus, and Airbus has to deal with P&W's crap attitude.

Lufthansa has had to depute senior pilots on the NEOs because it keeps throwing up critical errors which are making junior pilots soil their pants, and when LH doesn't have a senior pilot to depute on a route with a NEO, the flight gets cancelled and LH has to deal with the repurcussions of cancelling a flight.

___________

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

To me at least, growing up as an aviation enthusiast, Pratt and Whitney were the quintessential aircraft engines, powering almost all the the early age jets with their JT 3/8 series and then the JT9 and so on.

You and me both mate, the JT11Ds & the Blackbirds were a major part of what got me into Aero.

I feel it's a bit like being a Ferrari fan in Formula 1. You know underneath all their stupid strategy calls, and third rate management decisions there is still a fundamentally good team that can win. I feel the same with Pratt, I'm still rooting for them, and hope they can get out of this mess.

[volkman10]

Tata and IndiGo in race to acquire Go First's aviation assets.

Tata Group, and the country's largest airline, IndiGo, are reportedly in discussions to acquire Airbus SE planes from Go Airlines India Ltd. This comes after the carrier filed for insolvency protection and was instructed to halt ticket sales.

Tata Group and IndiGo are currently in separate negotiations with Go First's lessors.
Additionally, the two companies are also engaged in discussions with airport operators in New Delhi and Mumbai regarding landing and parking slot arrangements. It has been disclosed that Go First's lessors are seeking to repossess 36 aircraft, which is evident from filings made with India's aviation regulator.
According to the report, multiple other parties have also expressed their interest in acquiring the airport slots. One of the interested parties mentioned is Akasa Air, a recently established airline, as per sources.

Link

[raksrules]

So all possibilities of flights of Go First resuming are NIL at the point right? I would hope they would just say so and start processing refunds. My wife, kids and in-laws have a flight from BLR to BOM in June first week and if they give clear picture now, I can go ahead and rebook in some other airline.

[volkman10]

Originally Posted by raksrules

So all possibilities of flights of Go First resuming are NIL at the point right? I would hope they would just say so and start processing refunds. My wife, kids and in-laws have a flight from BLR to BOM in June first week and if they give clear picture now, I can go ahead and rebook in some other airline.

The below could give an indication on the status of the Go First refund.