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Old 6th January 2020, 16:51   #16
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Default Re: Electric Cars vs Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars

The prime mover for both Li battery powered EV and hydrogen fuel cell car would be an electric motor. The question is only about the chemical reaction which produces the electricity. While many in this forum have provided insights about the production and availability of hydrogen as compared to Lithium, the factor that is a major deterrent is safety of handling hydrogen.

Hydrogen is the most combustible gas ever. Period.

It needs very low amount (next to nothing) of energy to ignite. Even a die hard enthusiast of normal Li battery powered EV would find it a bit nervous to ride a car with such a explosive gas/ liquid in the tank. Frankly, i don't know of any hydrogen powered car passing a crash test.

Last edited by srini1785 : 6th January 2020 at 17:16.
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Old 6th January 2020, 17:56   #17
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A little article that also puts some of the safety concerns to rest

https://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy...cell-cars.html
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Old 6th January 2020, 18:06   #18
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Default Re: Electric Cars vs Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by srini1785 View Post
While many in this forum have provided insights about the production and availability of hydrogen as compared to Lithium, the factor that is a major deterrent is safety of handling hydrogen.

It needs very low amount (next to nothing) of energy to ignite. Even a die hard enthusiast of normal Li battery powered EV would find it a bit nervous to ride a car with such a explosive gas/ liquid in the tank. Frankly i don't know of any hydrogen powered car passing a crash test.
The Hyundai Nexo FCEV has undergone crash test certification (from IIHS) and is the first FCEV to achieve the same:
https://newatlas.com/hyundai-nexo-fc...sh-test/60994/

Quote from Toyota regarding Mirai's fuel tank:
Quote:
Global Technical Regulation No. 13 is an agreement between Japan, Europe and North America that sets the safety requirements that all high-pressure hydrogen systems must adhere to. Compliance with this regulation is tough, and requires hydrogen tanks to be dropped, frozen, damaged, exposed to chemicals, hydraulically and pneumatically cycled, stuck on a bonfire and ultimately burst to ensure tank performance throughout the lifetime of the vehicle. Toyota engineers have worked to ensure that Mirai’s hydrogen tanks meet these regulations so that drivers may enjoy years of emission-free driving.
Toyota mentions that in case of a collision, the body frame of the Mirai distributes forces around the occupant cell and the hydrogen fuel tanks. It has carbon fibre wrapped tanks (in which Toyota has 250+ patents regarding the weave!). They are designed to hold hydrogen at 700 bar. Also a valve stops hydrogen from circulating in the circuit. Any leaked hydrogen, being lighter than air, quickly disperses in to the atmosphere.

In my opinion, the only major issue with hydrogen as a fuel is the difficulty and efficiency of the processes with which it is extracted (gasification, steam reforming, electrolysis) and its low volumetric energy density:


Once the fuel is readily available (mass produced/produced at source and distributed), FCEVs will become a major threat to BEVs as they do not have to be 'charged', simply fill at a station and drive for 300+ miles! Though only in California as of now
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Old 6th January 2020, 20:22   #19
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Default Re: Electric Cars vs Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars

Water pollution is pretty high when hydraulic fracking is performed as well . My colleagues in Westminster, CO have been suffering effects of rampant fracking in their backyards.
EVs are more environmentally friendly when compared to ICE and smaller the battery, generally larger the margin.

Engineering explained made a great video illustrating the same.


Going by his video, and the state of our grid, the net pollution with EV may not be so much lower than in our country where the grid is generally coal powered, except moving the point where stuff is emitted. But EVs are so much better and smoother to drive .
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Old 9th January 2020, 10:28   #20
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Default Re: Electric Cars vs Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by ds.raikkonen View Post
The Hyundai Nexo FCEV has undergone crash test certification (from IIHS) and is the first FCEV to achieve the same:
Thank you for this information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ds.raikkonen View Post
They are designed to hold hydrogen at 700 bar. Also a valve stops hydrogen from circulating in the circuit. Any leaked hydrogen, being lighter than air, quickly disperses in to the atmosphere.
Although i am fully sold on EV and very enthusiastic about owing one (atleast a scooter ), i am not fully convinced on fuel cells. One scientific fact is that H2 is lighter than air, stable and escapes easily to the atmosphere, nascent hydrogen (H) which is what is present inside the tank, on the other hand is very, very unstable. The only thing that stabilizes it is the presence of platinum which basically slows down the reaction.

Believe me , i have seen in first hand the destructive power of hydrogen. It was some time back in a hydrogenation unit of a petrochemical plant that Naptha leaked and a worker near the leakage was blown clean 30ft and sustained grievous injuries.

The question also is about refilling plants and their safety too. If the tank itself is at 700 bar, the re fulling pump must generate higher pressure to fill it. At that pressure, i am assuming that hydrogen is already in liquid form.

I would rather that we use this tech to generate power and supply to the grid and run our cars / bikes with good old batteries.
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Old 9th January 2020, 21:35   #21
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Default Re: Electric Cars vs Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars

In my opinion hydrogen is the ultimate fuel for the future after EVs. My guess is that Hydrogen cars will take over from EVs in 30 or 40 years once the technology around storing hydrogen safely in a rough & tough + zero maintenance way gets solved.
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Old 14th February 2020, 13:42   #22
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Default Re: Electric Cars vs Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars

There are plenty of options for power generation other than hydrogen cells. Have a look at Aluminum Air cells. We have our own Indian company Log 9 materials from Bangalore who have retrofitted a e2o for 300kms of range in R&D phase. They plan to hit the 1000KM mark for the cell in the future with a more compact size.

In addition to this, you also have Zinc - Air cells. All of these solutions are better than compressed hydrogen stores in my opinion. In any case, we are barely scratching the surface for better energy sources. We have exploited non-renewable sources for too long.



Last edited by ohaak : 14th February 2020 at 13:43.
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Old 2nd March 2020, 01:15   #23
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Default Re: Electric Cars vs Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars

Hydrogen Problems:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lbacks-A1.html

Need to see a day when electrons leak from EVs and blocking highways.
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Old 18th April 2020, 19:30   #24
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Default Re: Electric Cars vs Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-52328786

This is for the storage of hydrogen at lower pressures in a material similar to bath sponge. Should be safer to carry hydrogen
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Old 21st April 2020, 14:54   #25
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Default Re: Electric Cars vs Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
Whereas the number of hydrogen fueled cars are still very low, the number of hydrogen busses is at least encouraging. There are literally hundreds and hundreds of them Operating in Europe alone. And more are being introduced in some innovative ways. E.g. this one here in France

http://www.rfi.fr/en/science-technol...on-strikes-pen
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
New Zealand will be starting trial runs of HFC buses by the third quarter this year. The company responsible for this is home grown Global Bus Ventures or GBV.

https://www.globalbusventures.co.nz/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
A little article that also puts some of the safety concerns to rest

https://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy...cell-cars.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
In my opinion hydrogen is the ultimate fuel for the future after EVs. My guess is that Hydrogen cars will take over from EVs in 30 or 40 years once the technology around storing hydrogen safely in a rough & tough + zero maintenance way gets solved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-52328786

This is for the storage of hydrogen at lower pressures in a material similar to bath sponge. Should be safer to carry hydrogen

in another news , Daimler teams up with Volvo Trucks in a fuel cell venture.
To quote from the article
Quote:
Daimler teams up with Volvo Trucks in fuel cell venture

FRANKFURT (Reuters) - Daimler and Volvo Trucks have agreed to join forces to develop, produce and sell fuel cell systems for heavy-duty vehicles, in a sign that the coronavirus crisis is accelerating consolidation.

Global car and truck makers are exploring ways to share costs on new technologies as customers shun showrooms in areas hit by the coronavirus pandemic lockdowns, denting profits.

“The common goal is for both companies to offer heavy-duty vehicles with fuel cells for demanding long-haul applications in series production in the second half of the decade,” Daimler (DAIGn.DE) and Volvo (VOLVb.ST) said on Tuesday.

The joint venture agreed by the two companies will operate as an independent and autonomous entity, with Daimler Truck AG and the Volvo Group continuing to be competitors in all other areas of business, they said in a joint statement.

“Joining forces will decrease development costs for both companies and accelerate the market introduction of fuel cell systems in products used for heavy-duty transport and demanding long-haul applications,” the companies said.

Volvo will acquire 50% in the joint venture for around 0.6 billion euros, they added.

Daimler Trucks will bring together all of Daimler’s fuel cell activities in a new fuel cell unit, including those of Mercedes-Benz Fuel Cell GmbH. Automotive and non-automotive usage are also part of the new joint venture’s scope.

The preliminary agreement between the two companies is non-binding, with a final deal expected by the third quarter and closing before the end of 2020, the companies said.
As things go, FCEVs may be the preferred choice for heavy duty long haul applications in the foreseeable future. Who knows, maybe when the tech becomes safer and better efficiencies are obtained in production, transportation and storage of Hydrogen, the tech may find itself being used in personal transport applications too.

Back home, Tata motors along with ISRO demonstrated a Fuel Cell Bus (Tata Motors teams up with ISRO to demonstrate Hydrogen fuel cell powered bus) way back in 2013.

Cheers !

Article Courtesy : https://uk.reuters.com/
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Old 21st April 2021, 17:18   #26
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Default Hydrogen vehicle vs EVs - Can Hydrogen be an alternative?

A lot of us have been even putting off buying ICE vehicles in the hope that EV infrastructure would become better. But should we see hydrogen as a competitor, even a viable alternative perhaps. Or would it go the HD-DVD way.

A few points working in favor of Hydrogen.
  • Bigger vehicles/load vehicles would go Hydrogen. Already, trams in China and some trucks in Germany run on hydrogen.
  • In India, the government is not averse to exploring Hydrogen - atleast they have made statements to that effect even a couple of years ago. Even a month ago, there was an announcement to start hydrogen bus to run the Delhi Jaipur route.
  • Existing big players can leverage their existing fuel station infrastructure to come into the manufacturing/distribution system of hydrogen - someone like tata, reliance, or even the existing fuel companies.
  • Takes less time to refuel (as fast as conventional cars) and gives more range.
  • (Obviously) Zero pollution because it emits just water.
  • EVs do have the often overlooked problem Lithium recycling at end of life.

Cons obviously are
  • Infrastructure is years behind the EVs and the costs need to come down.
  • Not all methods of manufacturing are environment friendly

Just thought of starting a discussion on this topic.
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Old 21st April 2021, 17:28   #27
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Default Re: Hydrogen vehicle vs EVs - Can Hydrogen be an alternative?

It is not a question of whether hydrogen can be an alternative but when.

I have never understood why the industry at large did not pour in more research and development in hydrogen over battery/electric.

There are already hydrogen cars, notably busses and cars driving around in various countries.

Electric Cars vs Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars-screenshot-20210421-1.55.23-pm.png

Yes, the infrastructure needs developing. However, countries that have a large natural gas infrastructure are just about good to go. Natural gas infrastructure requires relative little modification to transport hydrogen.

Here in the Netherlands we are already converting part of our natural gas pipeline infrastructure to carry hydrogen. First applications are going to be heavy industry.

At long last it is also beginning to dawn on people that we can not replace fossil fuels with one alternative. The world will require a number of different technologies working in parallel.

Jeroen
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Old 21st April 2021, 17:34   #28
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Default Re: Hydrogen vehicle vs EVs - Can Hydrogen be an alternative?

Here is one relevant video that I saw sometime back.

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Old 21st April 2021, 18:29   #29
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Default Re: Hydrogen vehicle vs EVs - Can Hydrogen be an alternative?

Echoing Jeroen's thoughts: I hope hydrogen fuel cell based vehicles come in sooner than later. It will reduce the dependence and the race for precious minerals like Lithium. And from what little I have read up, should be cleaner.

Technology, infrastructure wise investment will be needed. This can result in some redundancy if the current EV's push goes too far.

Open to corrections.
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Old 21st April 2021, 18:56   #30
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Default Re: Hydrogen vehicle vs EVs - Can Hydrogen be an alternative?

Every technology evolves, and with evolution also comes newer priorities and policies so what does not seem to be a sucessful proposition today turns out prospective in the future. Decades back EV was a similar proposition, high cost (its still higher than ICE though), low range, low top speed. A lot of those have changed or we are embracing it even knowing the limitation.

Like someone said, hydrogen does not have to be the only thing fuelling cars, they can co-exist with EVs with former for commercials / heavy vehicles and later for more private options.

And offroaders, I will still prefer ICE, just do not want to run out of juice in the middle of nowhere only because I pressed the Acclerator a few times more to come out of a tricky situation.

Last edited by haisaikat : 21st April 2021 at 18:57.
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