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Old 6th June 2021, 22:15   #16
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Default Re: Toyota Mirai breaks world record with 1000 km drive on a single tank of hydrogen

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Originally Posted by fulcrum29 View Post
The biggest problem with electric vehicles is that till date 65% of the world's electricity is still generated from coal, natural gas, peat and oil which is unsustainable. Electric vehicles are not as "clean" as they seem.
Are these questions asked only to EVs? How does the Hydrogen and Petrol made, do they magically appear in the filling stations?

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Also, hydrogen fuel currently costs 70/- per kg in India. A full tank would cost 400/- , which is peanuts to pay for a 500ish km range I am aware of the issues faced in production and transportation of hydrogen, but am keeping my fingers crossed and hoping for a surprise invention which clears the road for hydrogen powered cars.
You need to revisit your numbers, hydrogen costs typically 10/kg which is around 800₹/kg, if you can travel 100km/kg, it costs 8₹/km almost similar to our ICE cars. Compare this to 1-2₹/km for BEVs.

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I think there is a sense that for the passenger vehicle segment, BEVs have won out for the short and medium term certainly with the prevailing customer sentiment and accordingly the majority of OEM development reflecting this. However there are certain difficult to decarbonise sectors like commercial vehicles where hydrogen is likely to have a significant role to play. Basically think busses, trucks, ships - it's highly unlikely that battery technology will achieve the energy density necessary to make their usage in these sectors practicable.
The below graphic tells where H2 is useful, and where H2 may not be that useful, created by a researcher(one who actually supports hydrogen) I follow on Twitter. Their analysis shows H2 may not be useful for cars, buses and even trucks. Trains and metro trains are already electric in India, no use of hydrogen or batteries. Shipping and long haul aviation can move to hydrogen.

Also as hydrogen tech improves in next 10years, battery tech will be far ahead and it's a waste of energy to first make hydrogen and then convert to electricity.

Toyota Mirai breaks world record with 1000 km drive on a single tank of hydrogen-img_20210604_213300.jpg
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Old 6th June 2021, 22:34   #17
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Default Re: Toyota Mirai breaks world record with 1000 km drive on a single tank of hydrogen

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Originally Posted by SKC-auto View Post
Are these questions asked only to EVs? How does the Hydrogen and Petrol made, do they magically appear in the filling stations?

Watch this video:
https://Youtu.be/mk-LnUYEXuM


You need to revisit your numbers, hydrogen costs typically 10/kg which is around 800₹/kg, if you can travel 100km/kg, it costs 8₹/km almost similar to our ICE cars. Compare this to 1-2₹/km for BEVs.


The below graphic tells where H2 is useful, and where H2 may not be that useful, created by a researcher(one who actually supports hydrogen) I follow on Twitter. Their analysis shows H2 may not be useful for cars, buses and even trucks. Trains and metro trains are already electric in India, no use of hydrogen or batteries. Shipping and long haul aviation can move to hydrogen.

Also as hydrogen tech improves in next 10years, battery tech will be far ahead and it's a waste of energy to first make hydrogen and then convert to electricity.

Attachment 2164673
No, I did not assume that hydrogen and petrol magically appeared in filling stations. I'm sure your aware that there are 2 major ways of producing hydrogen fuel. Electrolysis is the better one (for the environment), and there is a massive amount of research going into economical production of hydrogen through this method, specially in Japan. The price of hydrogen fuel that I quoted was from the hydrogen refueling station in ghaziabad and not the UK. The prices there are around the 80/- per kg mark.
This video gave me a different point of view.
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Old 6th June 2021, 23:22   #18
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Default Re: Toyota Mirai breaks world record with 1000 km drive on a single tank of hydrogen

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Originally Posted by fulcrum29 View Post
No, I did not assume that hydrogen and petrol magically appeared in filling stations. I'm sure your aware that there are 2 major ways of producing hydrogen fuel. Electrolysis is the better one (for the environment), and there is a massive amount of research going into economical production of hydrogen through this method, specially in Japan. The price of hydrogen fuel that I quoted was from the hydrogen refueling station in ghaziabad and not the UK. The prices there are around the 80/- per kg mark.
https://Youtu.be/-gBQ63O1zrw This video gave me a different point of view.
Is there a working hydrogen fuel station in ghaziabad? All that I found was HCNG stations.

That Donut video says Elon is wrong because according to a survey the 62% executives believe hydrogen is future. The video is less on content and more on drama. Electrolysis is the better way to make hydrogen but you need massive amounts of electric energy which again comes from the same grid.
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Old 7th June 2021, 19:33   #19
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Default Re: Toyota Mirai breaks world record with 1000 km drive on a single tank of hydrogen

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Originally Posted by SKC-auto View Post
The below graphic tells where H2 is useful, and where H2 may not be that useful, created by a researcher(one who actually supports hydrogen) I follow on Twitter. Their analysis shows H2 may not be useful for cars, buses and even trucks. Trains and metro trains are already electric in India, no use of hydrogen or batteries. Shipping and long haul aviation can move to hydrogen.
This is a good graphic for sure. Thing is, right now, I don't think anyone can truly say where the pressure points lie in the various systems, that'll only come with time and with implementation (ideally at scale but realistically at smaller scale and then extrapolated on the basis of data). What graphics like these attempt to do is make the best educated guess based on what we know now, and to that extent it's a really good starting point. For urban stop start traffic, for sure BEV has an advantage especially if we couple it with regenerative braking for eg. However the moment you introduce long stretches of motorway driving, you lose that really helpful crutch to traditional range anxiety and it's in those blind spots so to speak, I think there is room for solutions like H2 fuel cell tech. I wouldn't rule out cross country trucking in that case.
Taking delivery vans etc, within the urban environment, as we've seen with recent BEV releases, the range is well within the daily requirements. It's why you see companies like Amazon opt for BEV delivery fans for urban environments. In a similar vein, if some solution can be found for topping up electric busses at terminals or bus stops (passively by inductive charging for eg), that ties up any concerns in that regard.
As for trains, from what I recall, there are still diesel electric locomotives on goods routes right? There of course it isn't so hard to imagine just switching wholesale to electric.

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Also as hydrogen tech improves in next 10years, battery tech will be far ahead and it's a waste of energy to first make hydrogen and then convert to electricity.
I think this is the very problem I was trying to highlight. It's easy to fall for the trap of putting all our eggs in one basket but as it's abundantly clear, no one solution is going to help us in the energy transition. To decry hydrogen entirely is to my mind foolish because that's purely looking at everything with BEV tinted glasses and using that one square peg for all the holes we envision, be they square or otherwise. I'm happy that a big company like Toyota with the engineering resources behind it is exploring this alternate route because that's precisely what we need, we need all the different tools in our toolkit to meet emissions challenges going forward.

As for the waste of energy example, I don't think it's so cut and dry. Let's take the most optimistic example and say a country transitions entirely to zero hydrocarbon electricity grids, and suppose that gives them excess capacity. This might mean that said country can look to export electricity (eg, what Ethiopia is hoping to do with the completion of the Grand Ethiopian Dam), or you could envision utilising that excess capacity towards green hydrogen, in which case suddenly you're looking at an energy exporter in both senses of the word. Granted this is very much an idealised scenario and to whit it's hard to think of a current example from my knowledge but it might not be as far off as we think (or at least I hope..).
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