[ZenMaster]

Maruti has been testing the WagonR EV for a long time. 1st the Japanese WagonR EV and now the Indian WagonR EV.

While there is almost no chance they are going to launch the WagonR EV seen testing these days, but it still means that they are doing something behind the curtains. They also probably know they don't want to be caught napping with no EV technology when the EV boom finally happens in India. Maruti along with Toyota seems to be playing the waiting game.

This is similar to Apple, They release new features years after its introduced by Chinese and Korean Smartphones, but they just hit the ground running and everyone laps it up. MSIL will probably come with all guns blazing when the time is ripe (in terms of volume) and advertise their car not as an EV 1st but a Maruti that you can run at 2-3 Rupees per Km -even cheaper than now.

[sramanat]

I think Maruti is leaving behind a big chunk of the market on the table. If you consider the mass market car market as a pipeline with people entering on one end (Alto) and progress to the other end (25 lakh cars) one could fit a classic bell curve with Alto at the mean (i.e., the peak), motorcycles to the left and something like fortuner to the right. Going by the monthly sales numbers, I think the mean has shifted a lot to the right these days - i.e., around 12 lakh ex-showroom (the peak is now at Creta) with Alto occupying the left extreme. Their cars go from Alto to SCross/XL6 range and they are catering to only about 50-60% of the market. Even if they were to gain 70% market share within this, their best hope is around 45% of market share. If I am not mistaken that is where they are at today.

Even to the left of Creta, the competition offers better sub-4m SUVs, leaving only hatchback segment in Maruti's dominance. I am not sure how long they will be able to sustain this. The way up for Maruti is
1. Offer premium ICE cars to take on Creta, XUV700 etc.
2. Offer alternate fuel options to the Alto-Swift-DZire-Brezza space and jack up the price to 10-15 lakh range, so that they play in a narrow but tall band centered around the mean 12 lakh ex-showroom price.

As I understand, Maruti is doing neither these.

Another way to look at this is in terms of profit. On a per-unit basis, you have only two ways to increase profit. Either lower the bottom-line or grow the top-line. With constant process innovation, product rationalization and volume play, Maruti is lowering their bottom line, which is how you play in a commodity market. I am not sure the car market is anywhere close to a commodity market now. The market has shifted to differentiated products with focus on increasing the top-line. If you compare Nexon or Sonet to the Brezza you can see the difference.

[buntee90]

Originally Posted by Hayek

The only mass segment where they have failed so far is the ₹12-18 l above 4m SUV, which has been created by Hyundai and Kia. I would be more interested in seeing if they can play the catch up game here and win this segment - if they do, my money will be on their winning EVs too (when sales reach 10,000 per month and not 4,000 per year).

I am also waiting for a decent and safe >4 M crossover with NA Petrol/Hybrid engine paired with 6 Speed MT/AT. We have no option in below 20L segment at this moment.

I so hope they bring a above 4M Brezza Hybrid with 6 Speed AT/MT, and they will have a winner on their hands for sure.

[GTO]

He might as well have said that "Maruti-Suzuki cannot enter EV segment in the short term". Reason? They don't have the capability to. You might as well ask Maruti to build an airplane. Come on guys, this is a company that still sells a 4-speed AT from the '90s in the market, and introduced its first diesel engine 20 years after the market showed its love for diesels. Just like they borrowed the diesel from Fiat, so will Maruti be completely dependent on Toyota for EV technology. Trouble is, daddy Toyota isn't as proficient with electric cars either, leave aside building them at a VFM cost for the mass market.

A post that I just made on another thread, but is surprisingly relevant here too!

Originally Posted by GTO

Bhargava has proven time & again that his thoughts & philosophies are from the 1980s & 1990s. Leadership like his is the reason that Maruti continues with the same formula of cheap + VFM + light build + outdated technology (AMT or 4-speed AT LOL) + absolutely no R&D capability. It's why Maruti hasn't learnt how to build or sell products in the lucrative 12 - 25 lakh segment (even Tata & Mahindra have successes there), no clue about EVs (Tata is already selling the Nexon EV), no truly high quality or premium product, no focus on safety, no diesel engine on sale (despite having an awesome 1.5L diesel) and not even equipment like ventilated seats or panoramic sunroofs which are all the rage today.

Maruti is like the McDonalds of the car industry; ubiquitous, everywhere and you cant go wrong with it, but no one really dreams about McDonalds. McDonalds is totally out-of-tune with today's focus on healthy eating & their focus is entirely on cheap / VFM junk food. A decades old formula, just like Maruti's.

He should permanently retire IMHO. While the government is working hard to make cars safer & less polluting, Bhargava says its not the right time for emission norms.

[avishar]

I think generally even automobile journalists and industry watchers are unaware of the steady volumes that Tata is doing with the Nexon EV. in June, Tata sold 650 Nexon EVs. Six hundred and fifty not a number to be sneezed at. To put it into perspective it is almost 10% of Nexon sales in India (giving Tata a small volume edge in the sub-4m) market. To put it in another way, a product with 650 units of monthly sales in India would comfortably outsell for example the Honda WRV. For a company like Tata to be able to build up trust and desire on a completely new technology in such a short time indicates that the general mood of the consumer is that they are more than willing to move to EVs provided that it makes sense from a product and value perspective. They are definitely open to thinking about it, and Tata is seizing that mindspace. I am not sure how Maruti not seeing this.

I have seen an uptick in the number of relatives who have been asking me about EVs in general and the Tata Nexon in particular. Especially after the general hum that electric scooters have created in India over the past 2-3 years.

Maruti has to realize that there are already lakhs of families in this country who are aware of the pros and cons of living with an electric vehicle through the proliferation of low-speed and high-speed scooters over the last few years. These families would be more open to adding an electric four-wheeler to their garage. Once you are used to EVs, the entire concept of being dependent on a petrol pump for the source of the motive energy will start to feel weird. Generally, owners who experienced EVs for a while will look to upgrade to better EVs and stay within that ecosystem. So in that sense we already have a captive market for EVs in India. The general excitement towards the Ola e-scooter also points to that direction.


I think Maruti should seriously look at launching the Wagon-R EV soon. They are making a mistake by thinking that the movement towards EVs is only going to be dependent on regulatory pressure. I don't think it is only going to be dependent on that, because the consumer curiosity and sentiment is catching up and soon it is going to come to a point where if you don't offer an EV as an option among your "engine" options, you will be loosing out on sales. Just like how models were being written-off a couple of years back, if they did not come with a diesel engine. And I think this point is going to come very soon in say 3 years in India.

[Coastrider]

Though I am not a Maruti fan, I feel the decision to go slow on EV cars is a good call. Their R&D is still way behind in expertise, the battery cost is exorbitant making the overall cost of car expensive and most importantly the charging infrastructure is scarce in India.

Maruti focuses more on mass sales and being a former owner of a Ritz, I know that innovation, green technology and taking an early gamble in an unknown pasture is not their forte.

In the short term, I would be rather happy if they focus on building a SUV/MUV in the range from 15-25L with better NCAP ratings & safety features (read Jimny and XL7)

[ValarMorghulis]

Originally Posted by ZenMaster

This is similar to Apple, They release new features years after its introduced by Chinese and Korean Smartphones, but they just hit the ground running and everyone laps it up...

I think somewhere Steve Jobs rolled up in his grave when you equated Maruti and Apple. One is the leading company in innovation and one of the largest in the world with its products considered as luxury items, while the other has scant presence outside India.

There is a world of difference how Apple and Maruti operate as companies: in philosophy, innovation and ideas.

[Raghu M]

If you think a little about the strategy, it will make sense. Why should you enter the market first and wait for infrastructure to develop? Wait for infrastructure to develop, look at all the feedback of other vehicles closely and then release a killer product. It is not always that there will be advantage of early entry. Sometimes, you need to wait and watch. I think Maruti has this strategy spot on.

There are various factors that will lead to success of EVs in India. Many people may not agree but the fact is, EVs will be seen sporadically until the end of this decade. By then, the government will create laws, set up infrastructure, you will see cutting edge technology and also may be a 'eureka' moment where a manufacturer comes up with an idea to decrease the charging time and increase the range dramatically. But, this will take time, a lot of time. Maruti can work on their R&D until then, maybe even showcase a model or two at various auto expos and then wait for the right time to launch.

I am not positive on the charging time reducing greatly. Take for example our mobile phones, they have been around for a good part of 2 decades. Has anyone seen a specific brand or model being charged in 10 to 30 mins? NO! The same with cars. It will be one huge road block on the path of EVs to pick up. There could only be one more scenario where EVs can become an option overnight. Scarcity of fossil fuels and insane gasoline prices. Until then, Maruti (and maybe we too) can wait for that cutting edge product to get released.

[DrCar]

I always reach when the host is about to finish his PowerPoint presentation and is summarising what he or she has said for the last 1 to 2 hours. I still don't miss out on anything and end up with a nice meal served at the end.

Got the gist?

Maruti is following the same. Why bother to waste years developing an EV from scratch, testing them and failing repetitively until a perfect product is developed.

Let others try for years, get a summary from them regarding the formula they used for getting that final successful product, blatantly copy that winning formula and use all your might to push aside the competition with a product which appears as value for money for the customer. (Insisting on the word 'appears' because Maruti products are poor in safety and the after sale service prices aren't as cheap as they seem compared to the competitors.)

[Bibendum90949]

Originally Posted by Raghu M

If you think a little about the strategy, it will make sense. Why should you enter the market first and wait for infrastructure to develop? Wait for infrastructure to develop, look at all the feedback of other vehicles closely and then release a killer product. It is not always that there will be advantage of early entry. Sometimes, you need to wait and watch. I think Maruti has this strategy spot on.

For a moment, let's assume the infrastructure is ready right now or after 2-3 years. Is Maruti in a position to launch an EV, a capable one, even then? They presently don't have the capability now nor in the near future. Their strategic partner Toyota is still betting big on hydrogen and still have not made much inroads into the EV tech. Besides, any technology company with vision and deep pockets can enter EV space overnight since it's largely about buying battery technology and putting rest of the pieces together. The traditional players who don't make the move now may well lose out in the EV race. Maruti is creating an albatross around their neck by opting to watch from the sidelines. It's not strategy, it's just vacuousness.

They can give confidence to their shareholders by conveying EV market is still not ripe, infra is not yet ready, EV sales are only miniscule now and doesn't eat into their market share etc. What they are doing about EV in the backdrop is the question here. They don't seem to have any EV roadmap now. Sitting on the sidelines isn't an open sesame to cracking the EV space either. There has to be some action than plain talks.

[NowNew7]

Originally Posted by Raghu M

I am not positive on the charging time reducing greatly. Take for example our mobile phones, they have been around for a good part of 2 decades. Has anyone seen a specific brand or model being charged in 10 to 30 mins? NO! The same with cars. It will be one huge road block on the path of EVs to pick up. There could only be one more scenario where EVs can become an option overnight. Scarcity of fossil fuels and insane gasoline prices. Until then, Maruti (and maybe we too) can wait for that cutting edge product to get released.

I was advised yesterday* that Nexon EV would take a 45 minute fast charge to reach full (real world) range of 250+ kms. While this does not compare with the speed/range of a petrol/diesel refuel, it is considerably shorter than the overnight recharge with ~80 kms of range that the Reva/Maini used to provide a few years back. And I am using India specific EV examples consciously here.

This is a significant development, and considering the initiatives underway to set up charging infrastructure by multiple players across the main arteries, anyone not taking this seriously is in grave danger of missing the EV Bus...

Off topic: 45 minutes is lesser time than what most of modern phones take for a full charge!

Originally Posted by Bibendum90949

Their strategic partner Toyota is still betting big on hydrogen and still have not made much inroads into the EV tech.

Great point. While definitely a clean alternative, hydrogen cannot compete with the ubiquity of electricity: Electricity is literally available on tap anywhere, Hydrogen needs significant and complicated logistics and infrastructure.

* Source Tata Motors Salesperson for Nexon EV at the showroom I was visiting.

[sensible_driver]

I think Maruti is taking right decision of playing a wait and watch game. The EV market in India has a very long time to mature, how much best we hope for. The charging time and it's infrastructure across highways will take few years to be built.

Moreover no one here is talking about the availability of electricity and the demand of high power electric sources in our national grid, once majority moves to EV.

And lastly the Auto Ancillary sector joined with these big OEM's also need to up their game and that would definitely take some time.

I sincerely think Hydrogen Fuel Cell is the much better technology than Lithium Batteries for use in India transportation.

Maruti will just use the matured technology after few years and will use its massive dealer network for the final Push.

[whitewing]

Well, Maruti may be no Apple with regard to innovation, but it sure knows to retain the average Indian consumer and it sure knows how to make money.
Like it or not, they skimp on many things, including thickness of the sheet metal etc.
Even for diesels, they entered the market pretty late, but eventually knocked out competition, with a borrowed engine :-). And one day, they changed tune on diesels, remember this https://www.marutisuzuki.com/petrol-...car-calculator ?
But all those notwithstanding, bottom line still is - they currently own volumes market, and have sustained it for the past few decades.

The key risk they run is the entry of a maverick like Ola, who can upend the settled sales/service channels and to whom (at least in the cab ride business) profits didn't matter - having access to a tonne of money to burn through.

[CarNerd]

I hope Maruti goes the same way as Nokia which was reluctant to adopt newer technologies and was overconfident. Being India's largest car maker, it should have been in the forefront in developing and making EVs. But it won't because it knows the psyche of Indians. Once an image has been built, whether it is a company or a person, no matter what happens, people will still follow them.

[Shresth_EV]

Originally Posted by Bibendum90949

Their strategic partner Toyota is still betting big on hydrogen and still have not made much inroads into the EV tech. Besides, any technology company with vision and deep pockets can enter EV space overnight since it's largely about buying battery technology and putting rest of the pieces together.

I disagree with buying outright. Companies can only buy those things outright which are being sold. Why is Tesla leading EV market? Because their R&D investment into motors and batteries pay off — off shelf components will not set you apart.

Why are Samsung displays and apple processors industry leading? Because they invest rather than buy. Buying will get you what everyone else is buying. How do you establish your USP?

This is where Chinese kill it because even if they buy, they can assemble cheap and still earn profit.

Originally Posted by sensible_driver

The charging time and it's infrastructure across highways will take few years to be built.

I would put our community at TeamBHP, as a
more hardcore car user than average junta, but to be honest, how many times do people do long trips by road? Is road tripping culture in India as strong as USA/EU? My dad absolutely despises long trips by road.

As some people noted in Nexon EV review thread, most of them realise that out of their 365d, only 10-15d at max are spent in long trips, for which they’d be willing to rent. Save money on running 350d and splurge on rental car when you need it.

And even then, it’s not that charging infrastructure won’t grow. Many trips are possible today as seen on Nexon EV thread. Buyers need to evaluate their requirements just like they do when buying a phone. Do you really care if your phone has fastest processor (1000km range and 5min recharge time) if you already have PC/console/Stadia/Xcloud? (A second car/ability to rent car)

Moreover no one here is talking about the availability of electricity and the demand of high power electric sources in our national grid, once majority moves to EV.

I sincerely think Hydrogen Fuel Cell is the much better technology than Lithium Batteries for use in India transportation.

If your implication is that EVs aren’t practical due to electricity needs, and simultaneously say that hydrogen is better, you couldn’t be more contradicting. Model S does 400mi/640km on 100kWh battery. Mirai will indirectly require 30-40kWh electricity per kg of H2 used. So full tank 6kg for 405mi/650km is 180-240kWh, more than 1.8-2.4x electricity than the model S. Is it not already clear that intermediate processes waste energy?

You also definitely not like it when you need 120L of tanks to store H2 worth 640km range with no boot space. Mirai, like Model S, is full size sedan with half the booth space. Imagine compact cars with hydrogen tanks.

Originally Posted by ZenMaster

This is similar to Apple, They release new features years after its introduced by Chinese and Korean Smartphones, but they just hit the ground running and everyone laps it up.

Except that there’s other USPs on apple devices to make up for lack of features. Apple still sold 100M units of iPhone 12. Interestingly, Koreans and Chinese are indeed pulling forward in EV space too. It’s the Japs who seem to be losing in both. (Sony Xperia)

Hyundai-Kia added features like V2G in Ioniq 5 and EV6. Chinese have embraced LFP for cost reductions and reliability long before everyone else. Yet, Tesla is selling, which you could say, are Apple of EVs.

Comparing Maruti to apple is utter humiliation to Steve Jobs. Does Maruti really have a USP if a Nexon EV is cheaper to run per km than Brezza? Kitna deti hai is no more effective. Even a Taycan will be cheaper to run than the Brezza.