[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Well, it took them almost two decades to get there, burning money like it was going out of fashion!!

I never said it is going to be easy. To have any chance at success, it would take the talent and the money that Apple has.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

You also need to study the P&L and Balance sheet a little more before ups start comparing with traditional car manfacturers. Musk, although he won’t admit it, has raked up billions in subsidies and tax advantages, not available to other (US and other) based companies. Also, they are still selling emission credits to our car manufacturers. It boost their toppling as it counts as sales, but it comes at no cost of sales, so a huge margin boost. And they are an energy company too, so they will keep in raking the subsidies and tax advantages.

The only loan Tesla ever got was from DOE which was paid in full. Tax subsidies for manufacturing in US is not a new thing at all and Tesla is not the only company who gets it.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

You might be able to generate higher margins than you competitors as long as you have some competitive advantage. For the last say 3-5 years, Tesla simply did not have much competition. As the other car manufacturers are beginning to become successful in just about all car segments it remains doubtful as to what that will do to their margin.

I am a Tesla investor and I know a lot about the company inside out. The high margins that you talk about are not because there was no competition, it is because Tesla is a world class manufacturing company.

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/tesla-e...o-unable-keep/

Tesla's first volume model, the Model 3 was not without competition - it had to compete with the incumbents which had more than half a decade of legacy and brand behind them.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

One thing is for sure, it is unlikely to go up. The one thing traditional car manufacturers till have over Tesla is size/scale. It will take them some time to get things in order, but it is size and scale that brings you the lowest cost of sales. Customer value brings you the toppling (unit sales price).

You could not be more wrong here. The legacy manufacturers arent even in the same ballpark when it comes to EV volumes, now or future, as Tesla. And if you are thinking of building capacity now, there isnt enough battery supply to be able to do it. Tesla is thinking of getting into mining for the exact same reason.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I don’t think so. They have no experience in this sector at all. Historically, there are very few successtories about companies who ventured to far away from their core business. Nearly all end in misery!

If it was traditional ICE car, I would not give Apple a chance at any success but we are talking about EV's here. Think of it like a 4 wheeled robot running sophisticated hardware and software.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

And you will never ever be able to match the apple nett earning, percentage wise, with cars, so getting into the car manufacturing business is going to water down the Apple margin. I don’t see Tim, his board, or any of his shareholders going for that. Using Airplay to get a foot in the door is a very safe tactic.
Jeroen

Who says they have to as long as it helps the bottom line and earns them more margins than the incumbents? Apple's supply chain smarts are second to none and I feel if they are thinking about getting into cars that they think manufacturing in house as well.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

No, look at their balance sheet. Those billions don’t account for their current assets by a long shot.

But two massive factories scaling up and not earning any money for Tesla is dragging down margins.

[landcruiser123]

I doubt Apple can produce its own cars. As pointed out by GTO and Jeroen, they have zero expertise in this field and 2026 is too close to design/test/build a new car.

Any "Apple" car has to be in partnership with an existing brand and Apple provides the technology for a premium software experience.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

You also need to study the P&L and Balance sheet a little more before ups start comparing with traditional car manfacturers. Musk, although he won’t admit it, has raked up billions in subsidies and tax advantages, not available to other (US and other) based companies. Also, they are still selling emission credits to our car manufacturers. It boost their toppling as it counts as sales, but it comes at no cost of sales, so a huge margin boost. And they are an energy company too, so they will keep in raking the subsidies and tax advantages.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

I am a Tesla investor and I know a lot about the company inside out. The high margins that you talk about are not because there was no competition, it is because Tesla is a world class manufacturing company.

Anyone will who calls Tesla "a world-class manufacturing company", will be laughed at and shown the door by expert manufacturing engineers and mechanical engineering professors. The Tesla team is also known to scramble through their production every quarter end to get good financial results and inflate the stock value.

However, they have some world-class software and technology! I have to agree with Jeroen on Musk's P&L surviving on subsidies, carbon credits, and incentives.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Anyone will who calls Tesla "a world-class manufacturing company", will be laughed at and shown the door by expert manufacturing engineers and mechanical engineering professors.

I am genuinely curious to know the reasons why Tesla's would be laughed at by professors and experts? Can you give some specific examples of why that is?

Tesla Model 3, S and X were the vehicles with the lowest probability of injury ever tested by NHTSA and this was in 2018
https://www.tesla.com/blog/model-3-l...r-tested-nhtsa

Model Y has just recently received the top safety score of any vehicle ever tested by Euro NCAP and Australia’s ANCAP
https://www.notateslaapp.com/news/95...r-tested-video

It is the first company to completely rethink car manufacturing so much so that incumbents are following the same strategy
https://electrek.co/2021/11/30/tesla...en-automakers/

Its the number 1 most attractive company for engineering college graduates in USA (Second is SpaceX and their employees are known to work across)
https://electrek.co/2020/11/11/tesla...ive-advantage/

Sandy Munro, a celebrated automotive engineer with decades of work experience now running his own automotive consultancy, is incredibly impressed by Tesla engineering
Sandy Munro --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Munro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Innqk1eMPx4

I can cite other Tesla engineering geniuses like the Octovalve (their heat pump), gigacasting or structural battery pack or even their 4680 batteries but I will let you explain your comment with some relevant details. At the moment it just sounds like an opinion with no factual basis.

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

The Tesla team is also known to scramble through their production every quarter end to get good financial results and inflate the stock value.

How can they "inflate" stock value by just scrambling through production if there is no demand? How are they growing 50% YOY? Why have they built two new giant factories one in Austin and one in Berlin and increasing capacity in China?

[PreludeSH]

Didnt Tesla start by buying GM-Toyota factory in Fremont, CA ? Not sure about their profit from car sales but couple of years ago they were making billions just selling carbon credits.

For Apple, they an hire the best across industry and can partner with existing car makers to create their own niche car.

[landcruiser123]

We're going OT, but I am going to "risk it."

Mate, you seem to be confusing engineering with manufacturing or you are a fanboy who can't be convinced. :P

What really caught my eye is when you called Tesla a "World-class manufacturing company". Manufacturing is the art of executing a design to perfection, especially in mass production. Sorry to blow your bubble, but TSLA was horrendous (C-) and now average (B+) in terms of manufacturing cars.

Check out these videos and articles: (Some from Sandy Munro - whom you obviously respect)

A little older:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCIo8e12sBM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSLTNjGI8hw

More recent:
https://jalopnik.com/engineer-who-co...-in-1846071616

From Musk himself:
https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla-...ction-is-hell/

Recalls: (Just do a simple google search)
They can't install seatbelts properly? Seatbelts have been perfected for decades!!
https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...rs-2022-11-25/


Before the fanboys go defensive mode and excuse Tesla as they are a "young company", I'll say this:
1. Almost all secrets to quality manufacturing are out there! They need to hire the right set of engineers and give them time to execute
2. Some mistakes are expected in the first few 100 units, but these "teething issues" seem to continue for years in case of a Tesla
3. Things like panel gaps, finishing, paint quality, leaky sunroofs, misaligned bumpers, and headlamps/taillamps fogging etc are not something a "world-class manufacturing company" will deliver.

The above may seem trivial but are not excusable on cars costing US$ 50,000 and above. A $25k Camry feels much better put together. I've seen many Model 3s and few Model S cars (owned by friends and relatives), and they leave a lot to be desired for cars costing well over US $ 50,000. Every owner I know loves the features and driving experience but hates the annoying issues due to Tesla's lack of quality control.

Engineering (design) wise, Tesla is second to none and other automakers need to work hard to catch up very quickly.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

I am genuinely curious to know the reasons why Tesla's would be laughed at by professors and experts? Can you give some specific examples of why that is?

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Mate, you seem to be confusing engineering with manufacturing or you are a fanboy who can't be convinced. :P

My last post on this particular topic and I will try and keep it short but atleast I got you to agree that they are a world class engineering company.

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Recalls: (Just do a simple google search)
They can't install seatbelts properly? Seatbelts have been perfected for decades!!
https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...rs-2022-11-25/

The title is wholly misleading. Of the so called recall, 70k were basically an off the air software update while 2k odd were for a potential seat belt defect. I took your advice and searched google - from Mercedes to Toyota
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-new...ront-seatbelts

https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/recal...fears-c-616175

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Before the fanboys go defensive mode and excuse Tesla as they are a "young company", I'll say this:
1. Almost all secrets to quality manufacturing are out there! They need to hire the right set of engineers and give them time to execute
2. Some mistakes are expected in the first few 100 units, but these "teething issues" seem to continue for years in case of a Tesla
3. Things like panel gaps, finishing, paint quality, leaky sunroofs, misaligned bumpers, and headlamps/taillamps fogging etc are not something a "world-class manufacturing company" will deliver.

I am not going to comment on more than 4 year old video's but I am not denying that Model 3, Tesla's first volume model, has had its issues but even with these issues, it has fundamentally been a game changer (safety, technology, range + efficiency, performance). One of the reason that it continues to do well for Tesla and is the best selling premium sedan in the world.
https://electrek.co/2021/04/26/tesla...-in-the-world/

But Tesla has not stopped still and nothing illustrates this evolution better this body in white comparison. This is where the engineering meets production and it speaks to Tesla's grand vision of - "Best part is no part, best process is no process" and the company seems to be going for it given the pace and quantum of improvement each year. All this is in barely 4 years since the original Model 3 production delivery. This is unheard of in the legacy auto.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNWYk4DdT_E

And if Tesla is not a world class manufacturing company, please explain this. Freemont is not even their latest and greatest factory because such is the pace of improvement that each new factory is better than the last one and the article alludes to that. Let me also make a proclamation - Austin will be way better than Freemont once fully scaled up. And thats North America because Tesla China already is and Berlin would be too.
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2...uverify%20wall

And the fact that they take 1/3rd the time to build a car compared to VW, one of the oldest and the largest car company on the planet
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/tesla-e...o-unable-keep/

[volkman10]

Apple reportedly scraps multibillion-dollar plan to build electric car.

Executives tell staff to end work on endeavor known as Titan
Employees on some car teams will move to Apple’s AI division

The decision to stop the project will bring layoffs, though it’s not clear how many employees will be impacted.



Link:

[Naetik30]

Apple has scrapped the plans - https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/wo...-12366531.html

[libranof1987]

Note from Support: Kindly continue the discussion on this thread (Apple cancels its decade-long electric car development project).