[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by needforspeed88

I can understand if it was lower segments but
cars like Fiesta and Altis trying to take benefit of excise cut at the
cost....

I think it is more a matter of the 'stable'. You may not want too many products in it. These cars are bigger than 4m so do not get the lower excise in any case.

[AdrenalinJunkie]

Absolutely true, I own a santro and a Green light at any signal is enough for me to forget everything else and leave everybody else behind and fly off the line. I do get pulled back eventually but who cares right

[Cooltronics]

Nice observation DCEite and this is a big issue for enthusiasts like us. I would like to add Swift 1.3L petrol in your list and trust me, it would hold the top position.
Why this issue ?
a) Good Mileage (this hits the majority of buyers)
b) Frequent highway drives
but apart from all these the most important point I feel is
c) Govt's excise benefit on engines upto 1.2L.
Since this rule has come up, all the manufacturer have silently downgraded their 1.3L and 1.5L engines to 1.2L or 1.1L engines to save on excise for e.g. Swift, Getz to name a few, the list would go on with many Sedans also powered with sub 1.3L engines.
With the current scenario, you ought to buy a Sedan to get the low end torque, something which has frustrated me to the core and revived my love for my swift 1.3

[needforspeed88]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

I think it is more a matter of the 'stable'. You may not want too many products in it. These cars are bigger than 4m so do not get the lower excise in any case.

I was strictly talking about the engines . What i am trying to say was
that instead of developing a new engine for higher segment cars
they pickup engines from lower segment cars and plonk a bigger turbo.
So they are trying to use the same engine in all the segments with/without
intercooler with bigger/smaller/VGT turbos depending upon the segment .
Etios, Liva , Altis run the same engine . Manza , Vista run the same engine.
Fiesta runs a bored out motor from the 1.4 liter engine when they had the 1.6tdci
available. In short develop a multipurpose engine which falls under excise limit in terms
of displacement ,yet can be used in higher segment with a bigger turbo/Vgt in the higher segment . In the Altis the puny engine cannot overcome its turbo lag despite using a
six speed gearbox .

So the bottom line is they are employing an engine which
is small enough to take excise benefit yet can be used in a higher
segment with a bigger turbo . It works out cheaper to manufacture and
does not require a separate production unit .So the bottom line is cost and economies
of scale .

[Tats07]

I agree about the low end torque of Santro and M800 MPFI, but old Wagon R, am not sure. I currently have a 2005 Wagon R, and the low end torque is not as impressive as that of Santro's. Honestly, I still feel Santro is way ahead of Wagon R and Alto!

Among the current hatches I think diesel hatchbacks have better low end torque.

[DCEite]

Originally Posted by Tats07

I agree about the low end torque of Santro and M800 MPFI, but old Wagon R, am not sure. I currently have a 2005 Wagon R, and the low end torque is not as impressive as that of Santro's. Honestly, I still feel Santro is way ahead of Wagon R and Alto!

Among the current hatches I think diesel hatchbacks have better low end torque.

I have a 04' WR and in comparison the WR K10, it has better driveability in 1st and 2nd gears.
Also the flat torque curves allows you to get the car moving in 3rd from 20 kmph onwards till 60 kmph, and in 4th gear it will not balk at 30 kmph unlike the K10.
Ofcourse, Santro eRLX engine is a different species altogether . Only if the car had better ride quality and space at rear, would have been the best seller even today.

[Born2Slow]

Also most modern cars have high compression ratios as they have knock sensors to retard timing when required. I have experimented with high octane petrol in Ritz which improves low end torque quite well.

[paragsachania]

Originally Posted by DCEite

I have a 04' WR and in comparison the WR K10, it has better driveability in 1st and 2nd gears.
Also the flat torque curves allows you to get the car moving in 3rd from 20 kmph onwards till 60 kmph, and in 4th gear it will not balk at 30 kmph unlike the K10.
Ofcourse, Santro eRLX engine is a different species altogether . Only if the car had better ride quality and space at rear, would have been the best seller even today.

I own a 2006 (split and rear reclining seats) too and I completely agree with your views on WR's low end Torque in comparison with the K10 WR. The K10 needs to be slotted to 1st gear to take on a speed-breaker even with just the drive while the earlier WR with the excellent 4 Cylinder, Flat Torque engine could do it 2nd gear without a fuss even when fully loaded. That is one reason why you suddenly begin to feel K10 is powerless and struggles at lower RPMs.

That apart, I have still retained my WR for a few of its unbeatable characteristics like the EPS, Torque and the sheer practicality even after 1,48,000 on the ODO in the past 5 years.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by DCEite

I have a 04' WR and in comparison the WR K10, it has better driveability in 1st and 2nd gears.

Originally Posted by paragsachania

I own a 2006 (split and rear reclining seats) too and I completely agree with your views on WR's low end Torque in comparison with the K10 WR.

+ 1.

Infact, it can be driven around like a diesel. With the ac on - torque is noticeable from around 1400 - 1800 rpm. Can easily shift into next gear when the rpm goes slightly over 2000 - 2200 rpm. Only for highways runs does it need to go beyond 3000 - 3500 rpm. (Its another story that it feels very rough and strained doing anything above 3000rpm).

Not something newer generations cars can boast of. I think Honda Civic has not been mentioned by anyone yet. Infact, IMO most Honda cars can be included in this thread.

[vnabhi]

Originally Posted by DCEite

I have a 04' WR and in comparison the WR K10, it has better driveability in 1st and 2nd gears.
Also the flat torque curves allows you to get the car moving in 3rd from 20 kmph onwards till 60 kmph, and in 4th gear it will not balk at 30 kmph unlike the K10.
Ofcourse, Santro eRLX engine is a different species altogether . Only if the car had better ride quality and space at rear, would have been the best seller even today.

+1 to your views above. Though the old Santro and the M800 would leave a Waggie gasping when starting from standstill, the good ol' Waggie is a lot better compared to the new K series ones when it come to low end grunt.

By the way, thanks for starting this thread. It really matches with my thoughts, though I've not driven that many modern petrol hatches other than the Ritz petrol. I found the Ritz petrol quite peppy however, compared to the new Waggie. Perhaps it has 4 cylinders, and the K12 may be more powerful than the K10.

[krish82]

Originally Posted by DCEite

I have a 04' WR and in comparison the WR K10, it has better driveability in 1st and 2nd gears.
Also the flat torque curves allows you to get the car moving in 3rd from 20 kmph onwards till 60 kmph, and in 4th gear it will not balk at 30 kmph unlike the K10.
Ofcourse, Santro eRLX engine is a different species altogether . Only if the car had better ride quality and space at rear, would have been the best seller even today.

My Getz 1.1 has Santro re-tuned engine and its delight to drive. It has better ride comfort and loads of space. But it never sold well, reason getz was launched with 6+ price tag initially, same with new ford fiesta wrong pricing. Irony people are ready to pay 15 lakhs + for Xuv 500 with 10k bookings in span of few days.

[Mpower]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

This is not unexpected. The main reason is Shorter stroke engines. A short stroke (oversquare) design is becoming more and more popular. This design permits making the engine higher revving and more powerful, at the cost of low end torque.

Just compare the Kappa and Epsilon engines of Hyundai and you will know.

One reason for the popularity of longer strokes, was the old RAC formula of the 50's of calculating the 'taxable hp' of an engine which favoured the undersquare design. Also, a smaller bore meant a more compact engine.

I dont really see a trend of strokes getting shorter ...let alone car engines going oversquare. Kappa <-> Epsilon is probably an exception rather than the norm.

[simplyself]

Turbo Charged engines have become norm. I think the turbo lag at lower end is one of the reasons for relatively less low end torque.

Even the Swift/Vista QJ suffer from this.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by simplyself

Turbo Charged engines have become norm. I think the turbo lag at lower end is one of the reasons for relatively less low end torque.

Even the Swift/Vista QJ suffer from this.

We are of-course talking about natural aspirated petrol engines here.

Diesels are actually getting better at driveability. Not much room for complaint there!

[Aroy]

The low end torque is proportionate to the engine displacement, so to get good low end torque you need larger displacement. The current trend is to reduce the displacement and add turbo charging to boost power at the higher end (every one wants a faster car), and low end torque suffers as a result.

It is not only small cars, take the case of the older SUV. Pajero engine is old school design and has excellent low end torque. To some extent the Scorpio 2.6L and the Safari 3L, had similar characteristics.

Come the newer 2.2L engine, and the low end torque has disappeared, to an extent that to extricate yourself from a "Sticky" situation becomes a difficult proposition, accompanied by clutch slipping (and resultant clutch burn!). This was discussed in another thread, and the conclusion is that if you want to lug it out in hostile terrain, then the old school engines score over the newer high speed engines, but at the expense of higher fuel consumption.

As most users want good FE and high speeds, manufacturers have acknowledged the requirement, and produce high speed engines for the lay public. Those who need the low end torque have to satisfy them selves with specialist off road vehicles.