[ramzsys]

So it is India which is the testing ground for Maruti's new diesel engines?

As ACM said, by 2015 there wouldn't be much difference in petrol-diesel prices, and at times when fuel efficient turbo petrol has reached Indian shores, what is the need for Suzuki to invest in diesel engines now?

Maybe, some conspiracy to keep Maruti shares cheered up in the light of Honda diesel's arrival?

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

I'm suprised at the kiddish reactions this thread has invoked. Maruti developing their own 1L and 1.4L engines could have a huge impact on the market - with diesels being available in smaller cars like the A-star/ WagonR, as well as having better pricing for their higher end cars. And with the Indian tax structure in place allowing capacity of upto 1.5 litres for diesel cars, I'm sure the cc will be northwards of 1.4 litres even though they might call it a 1.4.

Its not 2005 - when they were completly new to the diesel market, but 2013 - and they are a dominant force with diesel engines now (Even if its borrowed from FIAT). Remember - most people ridiculed them when they had proposed to launch a swift diesel - but that one product really transformed the market and the way common people look at small diesel cars.

Originally Posted by rajshenoy

Maruti is a nobody to develop in house diesel engine.

So was Honda, few months back!

All it takes is one good engine to silence all the critics.

Originally Posted by swami.n

I tend to disagree a bit here. IMHO, the Marutis outsell other cars with the same engine because of their service backup and the mindset among people that the Marutis are cheaper to maintain. I dont think the Swift or the Dzire outsells the Punto or Linea because of its better engine tune or driveability.

Originally Posted by MetalBuff

Point taken! But, having driven both, the engine in the Swift feels much more responsive ( better engine tune + lighter construction at work)

Forget sales for a moment - talking purely from engine + gearbox perspective - Maruti DDiS is mated perfectly to its cars, compared to even parent company FIAT.

Drive a swift and a punto75 back-to-back to feel the difference. The engine is nicely tuned and matched with proper gearing in the swift. I wish they had gone ahead and plonked the 90HP motor in the Swift to distinguish it further from the Ritz.

Originally Posted by ramzsys

So it is India which is the testing ground for Maruti's new diesel engines?

As ACM said, by 2015 there wouldn't be much difference in petrol-diesel prices, and at times when fuel efficient turbo petrol has reached Indian shores, what is the need for Suzuki to invest in diesel engines now?

Maybe, some conspiracy to keep Maruti shares cheered up in the light of Honda diesel's arrival?

Sorry, what question is that! Maruti Suzuki is such a dominant player ONLY in India - Where else would they go and launch their engines?

Turbo petrols may be fuel efficient, but they can't come close to diesels in terms of real world FE. Take European markets for example, where I believe diesel is priced slightly higher than petrols - but still there is a shift towards diesel. And FYI - 1.2 TSi Polo is rated at 17.2 and 1.5 diesel from Honda is rated at 25.8.

Would suggest you to have a look at the below thread too -
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...iesel-car.html

[ramzsys]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

So was Honda, few months back!

Honda already had a 2.2 and 1.6 litre diesel, and the 1.5 is a reduced version of the 1.6. So one can trust this engine, but not an all-new engine from Suzuki.

Sorry, what question is that! Maruti Suzuki is a dominant player only in India - Where else would they go and launch their engines?

Agreed!

[amitayu]

If a Suzuki engine helps reduce the price gap between diesel and petrol variants on the Swift and Ritz, maruti will have another potent business plan.

AFAIK, all companies maintain e 75,000 to 1 lakh price gap between their petrol and diesels, which they have to reduce now given the price difference between diesel and petrol has been shrinking. A big issue in reducing the price gap for Maruti had been the royalty aspect for the Multijet engines.
If an inhouse development gives them a price advantage, (assuming they will not be too greedy and try to recover R&D expenses too fast), they can really price the Swift diesel more competitively.

[srishiva]

Its not rocket science to develop a diesel engine. And if they do release the engine to the market with all the tests they would have done, it would be as good as any.

My hope is that they dont price it at a premium that is being done today. It will then be a change they would bring to the market.

[greatmana2000]

If diesel engines were not rocket science , the chinese would have had atleast a 1000 engines on offer . diesel engines are complicated and require a lot of R&D and testing .

[romeomidhun]

If Honda can develop a new Diesel engine, why can't Suzuki? Both of them have excellent R&D wings for Petrol engines (in Japan), and their Petrol engines are the best available in India, IMO.

Originally Posted by greatmana2000

If diesel engines were not rocket science , the chinese would have had atleast a 1000 engines on offer . diesel engines are complicated and require a lot of R&D and testing .

This is a great insult to Chinese, IMO!

[saket77]

Originally Posted by greatmana2000

If diesel engines were not rocket science , the chinese would have had atleast a 1000 engines on offer

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

This is a great insult to Chinese, IMO!

Slightly OT, but makes me wonder that probably there is no world-stage automobile manufacturer that is Chinese (??)

BUT, IMO, the strength of Chinese is electronics (cheap) and not mechanicals.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by greatmana2000

If diesel engines were not rocket science , the chinese would have had atleast a 1000 engines on offer . diesel engines are complicated and require a lot of R&D and testing .

Thats what they told about the Koreans a decade ago, when hyundai decided to build their own diesel engines as against the Detroit diesels used in cars like Elantra, and now - have a look at Hyundai. They have truly world class diesel engines.

[swami.n]

I still can't decide whether their own engines would be good or bad. We are not qualified enough to judge such a huge company even before its launch. I'm sure their R&D engineers would be a much more qualified than many of us here. We can pass a judgement only after we have the engine launched.

But one thing I'm pretty sure whether it is a good engine or not, it is going to do great numbers. When it comes to masses, its the brand's A.S.S that matters and not the car. Its exactly the reason why they are not able to replicate their success in the >10Lac category, where the image matters more than anything else.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

[b]Forget sales for a moment - talking purely from engine + gearbox perspective - Maruti DDiS is mated perfectly to its cars, compared to even parent company FIAT.

Drive a swift and a punto75 back-to-back to feel the difference. The engine is nicely tuned and matched with proper gearing in the swift. I wish they had gone ahead and plonked the 90HP motor in the Swift to distinguish it further from the Ritz.

I think if we are comparing engine tune state, then we have to compare the best state of tune of both swift and punto. Which brings in the 90hp into picture and the swift is just blown away as there is no alternate. I do not mean to say the Fiat is better. Maruti can bring in the 90Hp as well, but I feel Maruti is always looking to sell what the majority are looking for and not the car lovers, who form a minority community.

On a lighter note, Going by the argument, we all have to agree that Pete, Race Dynamics people should also be able to come up with a fantastic diesel engine, because they have done so much research on tuning boxes on engines.

A person who knows to tune does not necessarily have to know how to develop and create a completely new engine.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by swami.n

I think if we are comparing engine tune state, then we have to compare the best state of tune of both swift and punto. Which brings in the 90hp into picture and the swift is just blown away as there is no alternate.

I own a 90HP and am proud of it!

But - the tuning + gearbox combination of the 90HP is again better in SX4/ Ertiga. Its the gearing especially that plays spoilsport - in 1st and 2nd gears. Maruti was able to tune it better + mate it with better gear ratios.

Originally Posted by swami.n

A person who knows to tune does not necessarily have to know how to develop and create a completely new engine.

Pray tell me what is so revolutionary between Fiat's multijet diesel engines, Hyundai CRDi, Fords TDCi etc?

The technology hasn't evolved by much, and few good engineers in the R&D (Is it that hard to pull someone out of another company to head the job?), a state of the art engine manufacturing facility (Which they already have!), and some usual Japanese spirit for perfection is all they would need.

At the very least - they would try to benchmark their new engine with the FIAT multijet (which itself is proving insufficient for their sedan needs), so the new engines are always going to be a step up only.

[srishiva]

Originally Posted by greatmana2000

If diesel engines were not rocket science , the chinese would have had atleast a 1000 engines on offer . diesel engines are complicated and require a lot of R&D and testing .

Please remember, Chinese are good in rocket science too. They have sent a man to space with their know how.

They are building their diesel engines. They might become very good in a short time too. Cars and all are new to lot of countries and they dont have a long history. People can jump around companies for better pay too.

[greatmana2000]

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

If Honda can develop a new Diesel engine, why can't Suzuki? Both of them have excellent R&D wings for Petrol engines (in Japan), and their Petrol engines are the best available in India, IMO.

There are third party engine developers like Ricardo who can develop engines .. But you with 3rd party engine designers you can understand why TVS went south wards with their engines .

This is a great insult to Chinese, IMO!

Insult to chinese ? you want to respect chinese for stealing IP ? remember what they did with Bajaj Pulsar .. they made a gulsar version and i am not too happy with that .

Originally Posted by saket77

Slightly OT, but makes me wonder that probably there is no world-stage automobile manufacturer that is Chinese (??)

Because most of the patents related to diesel engine technology lies with the European companies . The European companies always rely on patents and R&D . They are not really bothered about selling their products .. but just technology .. case in point is Fiat .

BUT, IMO, the strength of Chinese is electronics (cheap) and not mechanicals.

Well , probably you did not know that the chinese are the biggest manufacturers of cloned single cylinder and twin cylinder engine manufacturers .

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Thats what they told about the Koreans a decade ago, when hyundai decided to build their own diesel engines as against the Detroit diesels used in cars like Elantra, and now - have a look at Hyundai. They have truly world class diesel engines.

I have posted the same thoughts in the Honda amaze thread earlier . Do you know how many types of diesel engines hyundai manufactures ? they make engines for cars , vans , hcv , lcv .

Originally Posted by srishiva

Please remember, Chinese are good in rocket science too. They have sent a man to space with their know how.

They are building their diesel engines. They might become very good in a short time too. Cars and all are new to lot of countries and they dont have a long history. People can jump around companies for better pay too.

They cant .. they got to license technology still . instead of licensing technology they can just buy the engines and tune them for india specific applications . only when there are volumes then they would do that .. and no manufacturer would buy a chinese rip off and face legal issues

[a4anurag]

Time to revive the thread!

So are we in for a surprise this year's Auto Expo or for the 2014 line-up of Swift and YL1?

Maruti Suzuki may reduce its diesel engine supplies from Italian car maker Fiat by about half, partly because of the slowing demand for vehicles and partly because the country's largest car maker plans to fully utilise its own plant to make the same engine.

With the falling demand for diesel cars in the domestic car market that declined 5% in the first seven months of the fiscal, Maruti is now looking to source diesel engines from its captive capacity.

Source: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/25232152.cms

Anurag.

[devsoftech]

Originally Posted by rajshenoy

Buddy i was only saying Maruti does not have capability. Suzuki might be in a better position to invest on engines.

Only in house creations that we have heard from Maruti(exists only in india !!) is Swift Dzire(both old and new) and we know what they have done there.

Have you ever seen completely India made design coming out of Maruti? Maruti pays Royalty to Suzuki and Fiat. (Another Analogy is Hero motors vs Bajaj)

I would rate Tata and M&M R&D to be much higher than that of Maruti which completely relies on Suzuki to supply cars, engines and any other technology. M&M is way to ahead. Even Tata have their own CR4 Engines.

Guys, K series was designed and developed by Maruti for suzuki. Do not underestimate the engineering talent in India. While the budget may be sponsored by suzuki, India can be a choice of engineering at the hands of maruti. Please review how many IIT engineers are being hired by maruti. I'm driving one and I can feel the quality if low friction K series built in India. Whether maruti builds or suzuki its immaterial. It is for suzuki. Why do not people comment when a MS SX4 is callee maruti SX4. We just want to prefix maruti tag to make anything cheap. Lets have some respect for talent that has been locally hired. I'm no maruti fanboy - if u read my previous posts. Sorry for going OT.

And I expect them to engineer the diesel engine by following honda's footsteps. Low friction, low weight, Smart mounts)