[blacksport]

Europeans put too much of technology into their cars, most of them those which haven't gone through the test of time. The Japanese, on the other hand, are always late in technology adoption, but spend more effort in refining the existing systems. And hence, more reliable.

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by blacksport

Europeans put too much of technology into their cars, most of them those which haven't gone through the test of time. The Japanese, on the other hand, are always late in technology adoption, but spend more effort in refining the existing systems. And hence, more reliable.

The Germans add gadgets to the vehicle and make it more sophisticated and costly to look with the reliability on the electronics more but on the other hand Japanese have low gadgets and rely on the fundamentals of engineering.

Anurag.

[shuvc]

So Lexus cars are low on tech and gadgets?

[prasadee]

Originally Posted by blacksport

Europeans put too much of technology into their cars, most of them those which haven't gone through the test of time. The Japanese, on the other hand, are always late in technology adoption, but spend more effort in refining the existing systems. And hence, more reliable.

That is a myth. Talk to a tow truck driver in California where BMW, Audi and Mercs are popular - you will find that the Euro cars are several times likely to be towed. Consider the features on Prius and other hybrids. Even if you ignore the hybrid tech, just the other tech in terms of reducing weight, better use of durable fabrics and noise reduction, Toyota and Honda have been much ahead. Its the Kaizen and Kanban principles at work.
In my observation - pretty much all my friends with Audi, Merc or BMW have had their parked cars towed as some sensor, or pump blows and the car refuses to start, while still under warranty. The interior light bulbs and electric motors for power windows and such - are a big disaster on all three brands. We cannot blame the Indian climate, mechanics and such. The 3 series and C class are sold in hundreds of thousands every year in the US. There are things to like about these euro cars - reliability is certainly not one of them.
I drive a Euro - a Saab, I do all the regular maintenance. I always order a few extra interior light bulbs - just in case. Also saves a few $s on shipping.

Euro cars - making mechanics out of drivers for decades.

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by shuvc

So Lexus cars are low on tech and gadgets?

Excellent satire. I think the Europeans are 'cooked and roasted'. Also, the holier than thou mindset is to their detriment.

Yes, they are technically better than the Americans, who put more premium on reliability. When it comes to technology AND reliability the Japanese (and now Koreans) have the game sewn up. In Europe there were major variations - France had (an maybe still has) far far worse roads than Germany, result more pliant suspensions and bigger wheels in the former, when the markets were still mostly local.

Of course the Europeans do come up with some marvels for which the world has no answer - Citroen GS (incidentally Bentley uses some of their Hydropneumatiqué components). Remember the car is over 60 years old!

Italy developed powerful small engines since the taxation was based on size, and fuel cost an arm and a leg. They had some real quirks - like the French legislating Yellow Head Lamps - to protect the local industry.

[ecosport]

Japanese are not really reliable. It is just a myth. I don't think Suzuki cars are that reliable. It is just that Maruti owners are not that fussy.

[Arjun Reddy]

Originally Posted by ecosport

Japanese are not really reliable. It is just a myth. I don't think Suzuki cars are that reliable. It is just that Maruti owners are not that fussy.

Vow Ecosport,I personally disagree with your statement.you probably must have had a bad experience to make the statement. I currently own a Maruthi 800 which is a 2008 model,had a 2005 Swift which I just sold around 5 months ago. Had a 1997 Esteem. I don't ever remember me being stranded in any of those cars. Maximum must have pulled over for a puncture in pre tubeless days. Yes the build quality has definitely come down and a few of the Maruthi vehicles have complaints of rusting on the doors and other body work areas,but with their reliability I guess we have never had issues and who says people like us are not fussy.

[avisidhu]

Originally Posted by lamborghini

many European cars are abused (built tough - can take a beating too - build quality), and very poor service technicians (VWAG primarily), it could be a reason to worry.
- Poor understanding of the car: How many non-enthusiasts run-in the engine? How many wait till their engine is warmed up before redlining it? How many switch off the engine without idling it after a high speed run? How many keep the DSG in neutral at long traffic lights?

While I agree with other points in your post, not sure about these two. I'm quite certain the european cars in our country are less abused compared to japs and koreans. Their reputation as high maintenance vehicles preceeds them, and euros are (arguably) generally purachased by city dwelling educated folks.

Originally Posted by ecosport

Japanese are not really reliable. It is just a myth. I don't think Suzuki cars are that reliable. It is just that Maruti owners are not that fussy.

Not really. Niggles and irritants in a car is a different thing, which Maruti vehicles admittedly suffer from. But reliability entails fewer breakdowns, and I'm pretty sure no Maruti vehicle till date has a bad reputation on this aspect.

Although, the spare parts being inexpensive and readily available could also be a factor here, but Maruti's reliability is certainly not a myth.

[vb-saan]

From what I see, the key difference is the definition of their target audience. Japanese (and now Korean) auto giants view the whole world as their market, and their business from international market forms a major chunk of their revenue. So the machines they build are sufficiently equipped to handle a myriad of adverse conditions across various terrains/climatic conditions. On the other hand, for European biggies, Europe is their primary space, followed by US/China and Rest of the world. Their cars do well in the home market, and they have brand specific strategies for US and China (considering the magnitude of the market). Unfortunately we’re a smaller percentage of the Rest of the world pie, and cannot really blame them for concentrating more on their key markets.

Reliability in my opinion, is one of many parameters which influence the buying decision. In the forum itself we have many happy customers of Euro cars, and probably may stick to that for their future purchases as well.

[ecosport]

Originally Posted by Arjun Reddy

Vow Ecosport,I personally disagree with your statement.you probably must have had a bad experience to make the statement. I currently own a Maruthi 800 which is a 2008 model,had a 2005 Swift which I just sold around 5 months ago. Had a 1997 Esteem. I don't ever remember me being stranded in any of those cars. Maximum must have pulled over for a puncture in pre tubeless days. Yes the build quality has definitely come down and a few of the Maruthi vehicles have complaints of rusting on the doors and other body work areas,but with their reliability I guess we have never had issues and who says people like us are not fussy.

Originally Posted by avisidhu

While I agree with other points in your post, not sure about these two. I'm quite certain the european cars in our country are less abused compared to japs and koreans. Their reputation as high maintenance vehicles preceeds them, and euros are (arguably) generally purachased by city dwelling educated folks.



Not really. Niggles and irritants in a car is a different thing, which Maruti vehicles admittedly suffer from. But reliability entails fewer breakdowns, and I'm pretty sure no Maruti vehicle till date has a bad reputation on this aspect.

Although, the spare parts being inexpensive and readily available could also be a factor here, but Maruti's reliability is certainly not a myth.

What is there in a Maruti 800 that can possibly fail? If the Japanese can make reliable cars, what is stopping them from making them niggle free too? Is not breaking down the only criteria of judging quality?

[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by ecosport

What is there in a Maruti 800 that can possibly fail? If the Japanese can make reliable cars, what is stopping them from making them niggle free too? Is not breaking down the only criteria of judging quality?

In your opinion, what should be the criteria to judge reliability, if not the break-downs? What is the point of having a rattle free, solid built car and stranded in middle of nowhere?

There are thousands of things in M 800 that can fail, but the point is that they don't. Thats the reason Maruti is market leader in terms of customer satisfaction inspite of the fact that the sell more swifts than entire product line up of many European cars in India.

[iceman7]

Originally Posted by vb-san

From what I see, the key difference is the definition of their target audience. Japanese (and now Korean) auto giants view the whole world as their market, and their business from international market forms a major chunk of their revenue. So the machines they build are sufficiently equipped to handle a myriad of adverse conditions across various terrains/climatic conditions. On the other hand, for European biggies, Europe is their primary space, followed by US/China and Rest of the world. Their cars do well in the home market, and they have brand specific strategies for US and China (considering the magnitude of the market). Unfortunately we’re a smaller percentage of the Rest of the world pie, and cannot really blame them for concentrating more on their key markets.

Reliability in my opinion, is one of many parameters which influence the buying decision. In the forum itself we have many happy customers of Euro cars, and probably may stick to that for their future purchases as well.

B-I-N-G-O!! Seems like you read my mind because I was about to post this argument. A simple way to substantiate this fact is to observe cars when you are travelling overseas. I spent a week in Kuala Lumpur a while ago and the only common cars I could see on the roads were the Honda City and the Hyundai Verna. I didn't see a single European car which is sold in India on the streets of KL. Barring the Big 3 of course.

[saket77]

Originally Posted by ecosport

What is there in a Maruti 800 that can possibly fail? If the Japanese can make reliable cars, what is stopping them from making them niggle free too? Is not breaking down the only criteria of judging quality?

Why Ecosport? Isn't Maruti 800 a car enough in your view? The only issue I see as niggles in older Maruti vehicles are the rattles which have been taken care of in the newer generation MS cars. And if you comparing the build quality of an 800 with a Ford or a VW, then its like comparing apples & oranges. Compare a Kizashi which is a Maruti & see the quality standards.

My 11 year old Zen has never let me stranded on road. On the confidence of that track record, soon it will be doing a 1500 kms run over a time of 2-3 days. Still it is rattle free and a literally a sprinter! And even in this era of competition & with so many informed buyers, if Maruti is still ruling the roost, & Japs are considered reliable; there is a good reason to it. It's not just herd mentality of people.

Based on my experience & all the information that I have, my next car will be either a Maruti or a Honda! Period.

[alpha1]

All right so my "view" about this may be clouded by the industry I work for (which is not related to the automobile sector), but here are the "facts"

US and EU organizations are extremely top heavy (especially in monetary terms). There are 100s of Senior VPs and Directors in each organization who need a better increment and better incentive each year.
How does the organization provide for these excesses?

How does the organization also show unrealistic growth in sales/turnover/topline, as well as show a considerable increase in margin/profit/bottomline year on year to appease the shareholders?

There has to be cost cutting somewhere. We can all easily guess what are the cost cutting measures:

1. increased output, leads to integration quality: because each working unit is forced to generate higher output
2. reduced manpower: reducing the size of working units ... seriously? what about non working units (100s of VPs for 3-4 lines of business?)
3. supply/chain sourcing improvements: using globally/locally sourced parts based on least landed cost, but does this really happen for US/EU products?

Since #3 hardly happens optimally, #1 and #2 are squeezed to limits ... and we know the result shows in the delivered quality.

You compare the US vs Jap companies on these two aspects only, and you will observe a sharp difference.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by ecosport

Japanese are not really reliable. It is just a myth. I don't think Suzuki cars are that reliable. It is just that Maruti owners are not that fussy.

LOL
Are you serious?

I'm a Maruti Swift owner please tell the forum whether i'm fussy or not and i'll tell you if you are right or wrong.

Originally Posted by ecosport

Is not breaking down the only criteria of judging quality?

Mostly yes because good quality parts, good design, and good build enhances reliability. Fewer visits to service center to take care of any "niggling" issues also count.