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Old 4th February 2019, 08:14   #181
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Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

Quote:
Originally Posted by avinash_clt View Post
Do you have more information about the same?
Would RON91 continue to form the bigger market share (Speed97, Power99 are still super rare outside of the metros) or would there be additional RON95 branded fuels?

.

This is not a concern. Paper below makes its clear that RON91 will have an impact on the fleet level fuel consumption. As development will be done with the market intended fuel, this should not be a significant concern. Seems like our govt has understood the technical implications while granting this deviation.

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Originally Posted by AirbusCapt View Post
Let's understand the technical aspects of BS4 versus BS6 before speculation and panic.
BS4 emissions require 50ppm if sulphur emissions, BS6 require only 10 ppm of sulphur be emitted. Two ways of reduction one by adding an ammonia stage to the exhaust (adblue), the other is by filling up with low sulphur diesel.
The addition of an adblue kit is fairly simple, the problem lies when BS4 engines run on low sulphur BS6 diesel, this lack of sulphur causes scoring of injectors in the long run.
However, replacing stock injectors with hardened BS6 injectors will solve this problem. Currently all auto makers are purposely adding to the panic, making it seem as if BS4 cars will stop running post 2020, this is to merely force people to buy new cars which also will be overpriced, to cater to the BS6 engines (nothing but better injectors and a adblue tank).
This is accurate , except for the statement in bold. Sulphur is not regulated as a tail pipe emission. Its reduction is required primarily to protect the After treatment system. Adblue will not impact Sulphur emission in any manner as suggested. Adblue is only for NOX reduction.

Both my above comments are referenced from this paper by ICCT.
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Old 5th February 2019, 20:34   #182
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Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

Quote:
Originally Posted by avinash_clt View Post
Do you have more information about the same?
Would RON91 continue to form the bigger market share... or would there be additional RON95 branded fuels?
RON95 is probably going to be available a few years after 2020. Right now, there's no sign it's going to be available by 2020.
Quote:
Originally Posted by avinash_clt View Post
I really hope they start stringent annual/biannual fitness check programmes for the vehicles than go about banning vehicles based on age alone (which do make OEMs happy though).
Fitness checks in India are a sham anyway, especially where pollution is concerned.
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Originally Posted by locusjag View Post
...I have a BS 3 and a BS 4 car in my garage.

I wonder if people like me should proactively sell my cars off in tier 2 or tier 3 towns, well ahead of time?
Maybe not right now, but in a couple of years...
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Originally Posted by Aceman82 View Post
I doubt this would happen anytime soon (or) will even happen. New registrations would be banned for BS4 vehicles but leaving that there would not be any impact for vehicle owners with vehicles confirming to BS4/BS4 standards.
Ask the folks in Delhi-NCR, whose registrations have been cancelled and the details posted on the government website.
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Originally Posted by Mortis View Post
What about the introduction of hybrid systems to meet BS6 norms ? Is that likely to happen or low chance of it ?
Someone in the government woke up and murmured something about encouraging hybrids, including offering subsidies. Except that, no one there understands the difference between hybrids and Microhybrids / SHVS.
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Originally Posted by Mortis View Post
Would all two wheelers need to have fuel injection to meet parameters from scooters upwards or can it be achieved with carburetors themselves ?
BS6 cannot be met without Fi.
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Originally Posted by Mortis View Post
Can we safely say that by increasing the efficiency of existing vehicles they can be made to meet BS6 norms ?
Efficiency is unrelated to emissions control. The more there are after treatment devices installed, the more power is sapped and worse is the fuel economy.
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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
@SS-Traveller; Excellent post.
Thank you sgiitk.
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...due to lower speeds on our Highways we need lower testing points.
Lower speeds, higher traffic density and traffic gridlocks mean higher emissions per km. To reduce emissions in such a scenario, more stringent parameters need to be applied, not less.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sukarsan View Post
This is accurate , except for the statement in bold. Sulphur is not regulated as a tail pipe emission. Its reduction is required primarily to protect the After treatment system. Adblue will not impact Sulphur emission in any manner as suggested. Adblue is only for NOX reduction.
That's correct. Sulphur messes up the catalyst (platinum) in catalytic converters. In fact, it would be interesting to research how many one-year-old BS4 cars have active catcons that work as intended, after being exposed to adulterated fuel, especially on our highways.
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Old 5th February 2019, 20:52   #183
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Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

Noob question.

Will the BS6 be applicable to 2-wheelers as well? I was planning to buy a Kawasaki Versys 650 in the next month or so. Are these big bikes that cost 8L+ already compliant with BS6 level of emissions? Will it be more prudent to hold off the purchase for a year and wait for BS6 to be implemented and see if the manufacturer releases a new vehicle?

I noticed a few comments above that says govt might cancel the registrations of BS4 vehicles. When might that be, if at all it comes to pass? I hope it's not applicable to vehicles purchased in the last 4-5 years before the new norms kick in.
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Old 6th February 2019, 12:04   #184
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Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post

A. The government

- has to decide whether BS6 will follow the same stringent standards as Euro-VI, or there will be dilutions. We already know that Euro-VI gasoline is RON 95, whereas BS6 petrol will be both RON91 and RON95. PAH in Euro-VI diesel is 8% max, whereas BS6 diesel has decided to go with 11% max.
This is OK. As per ICCT, these concessions dont matter. Link to paper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
- needs to formulate a set of India-specific standardised test cycles to check new as well as used cars.
Already a part of BS6. New vehicles are being checked. Old vehivales will now be covered under the topic of In Service conformity. So far I have no idea how well this has been enforced in Europe or what problems do they face
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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
- has to bring in stringent legislation as well as an enforcement system that will force automobile manufacturers as well as users to keep their vehicles conformed to BS6, without the use of defeat devices and / or after-market modifications that bypass emission control systems.
Its a part of the system already. Bypassing is not easy as emission at tail pipe as well as engine out is verified. Bypassing will result in detection by diagnostic system. For diesel vehicles, Navistar desperately tried to prove that the SCR system can be bypassed, but failed.

Like everyone , I am a bit skeptical about the ability of the government to bring in the new norms, but so far they seem to be on track.
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Old 6th February 2019, 12:50   #185
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Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

Quote:
Originally Posted by shreyascashyap View Post
Noob question.

Will the BS6 be applicable to 2-wheelers as well? I was planning to buy a Kawasaki Versys 650 in the next month or so. Are these big bikes that cost 8L+ already compliant with BS6 level of emissions? Will it be more prudent to hold off the purchase for a year and wait for BS6 to be implemented and see if the manufacturer releases a new vehicle?

I noticed a few comments above that says govt might cancel the registrations of BS4 vehicles. When might that be, if at all it comes to pass? I hope it's not applicable to vehicles purchased in the last 4-5 years before the new norms kick in.
Yes. BS6 is applicable to 2 wheelers also. Till date, no country has dared to phase out vehicle on the basis of emission norms . There is no draft notification or anything which suggest that the government is thinking on these lines. There is a separate scrappage policy under works which will be on the basis of the vehicle age and not on emission norms.
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Old 6th February 2019, 14:15   #186
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Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

I will also like to have 95RON petrol.

As I said earlier we are getting BS-VI cars in India (also BS-VI fuels in the NCR). However, as per the current rules these vehicles cannot be registered as BS-VI. BS-VI compliant is not the same as BS-VI certified. Just a note of warning.
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Old 6th February 2019, 19:58   #187
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Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

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Originally Posted by sukarsan View Post
This is OK. As per ICCT, these concessions dont matter. Link to paper.
So far as the PAH content is concerned, no, it will not make much of a difference, but the ICCT paper still highlights the fact that
Quote:
By 2023-2025 timeframe, India should try to match, or even improve upon, Euro 6/VI fuel specifications.
OTOH, RON91 combined with all the after treatment device burden will cause loss of power vis-a-vis RON95 petrol. That, combined with the Indian 1.2L displacement rule (10 years of the Small Car rule (<4-metre, <1.2L petrol, <1.5L diesel) : Has India benefitted?), might mean overstressed underpowered engines running in heavy cars, leading to higher fuel consumption - which may not be polluting, but will certainly boost the country's fuel import bill to some extent.
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Old 15th February 2019, 10:16   #188
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Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

With BS VI norms coming in shortly, Maruti and Suzuki have a bit of difference e in opinion on the future of diesel cars.

The market trend will basically follow the Automotive Leader and could decide the fate of diesel cars.

Maruti Suzuki:

- Maruti’s talks with Suzuki include whether it should completely stop producing diesel cars in India

- Suzuki favors stopping of diesel while Maruti's view differ as it perceives consumer demand sustaining, especially for the large SUV models.

- Alternately the company wants to expand its offerings of cars that run on compressed natural gas (CNG),

- Suzuki's 1.5-litre BS-VI diesel is not feasible to support its current product plans.

- CNG and Hybrid variants to be added (estimates CNG cars will account for 12% of sales by 2022.)

Quote:
Maruti plans to increase the sales of CNG vehicles, which will be followed by hybrid and electric models
Link1


Mahindra:

Mahindra's have a more forgiving approach towards diesels.

- Mahindra, which is heavily dependent on diesel vehicles, plans to start offering petrol engine options across its entire range( except Bolero)

- Contemplating whether to stop making light commercial vehicles, comprising products which run on small, one-cylinder diesel engine

- India’s second largest SUV maker will continue to offer diesel engines primarily because it feels consumer demand sustaining,

- Having a petrol engine in the light commercial vehicle segment is not viable for operators owing to lower fuel efficiency compared with diesel.

Quote:
A 1.2-litre engine will certainly become more petrol. A 2-litre engine will certainly be diesel. The 1.5-1.6 litre is on the edge and where it goes is not known yet
Quote:
20-30% of sales in the passenger car segment come from diesel engines, while the share is as high as 82% in SUVs.
Quote:
Stringent government rules, especially the move towards stricter Bharat Stage-VI emission norms from 1 April 2020, are also making auto makers rethink their strategies. In addition, the corporate average fuel efficiency (CAFE) norms require vehicles to cut their emissions significantly and yet offer higher mileage. Diesel vehicles are at odds on these parameters.

Summary:

Quote:
The factors which are forcing these changes go beyond the narrowing price differential between diesel and petrol, and extend to the rise of environment, social and governance (ESG) funds, wherein fund managers globally are reluctant to invest in companies that have exposure to any environmental risks
Link

Last edited by volkman10 : 15th February 2019 at 10:41.
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Old 15th February 2019, 21:49   #189
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Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

Im sick & tired of seeing people line up at CNG stations. Definitely in Mumbai the number of pumps aren't enough v/s the no. of CNG cars running around. Nowadays with Metro work going on, the queues add up to a lot of confusion & create bottle necks to an already crowded Mumbai.

How about Maruti coming up with CNG pumps of its own to declutter / decongest the existing pump queues before just putting vehicles on streets.
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Old 18th February 2019, 11:35   #190
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Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

Just yesterday, i was going through one article where it was written that Ford is also coming up with CNG version of Aspire sedan. It will not be a compromise on power. As is known fact that the power of vehicle reduces when it is being driven on CNG. But ford is bringing a technology where the power output would remain unaffected. Am sure that maruti would have got worried on hearing this. And they have again started this race of adding up CNG to its bestsellers. The brochure is already out on Ford official website. The good part about ford is the best build quality that they provide.

Nobody knows that moving ahead, they might decide to plonk the same CNG technology into its Figo also.

Just offtrack, WRT service cost, yesterday, i was going through one of the videos on youtube where a survey was conducted among the owners of different car brands. Sampling was done for approximate 2600 owners of each brand. Only ford owners confirmed that the service cost was always lower than expected. Whereas the myth floated by other brand owners is that ford is a costly brand to own.
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Old 18th February 2019, 11:39   #191
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Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

Does it make sense now to buy a used Diesel car? I am in two minds about this so would appreciate some guidance.
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Old 18th February 2019, 12:05   #192
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Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

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Does it make sense now to buy a used Diesel car? I am in two minds about this so would appreciate some guidance.
Buying a used car or a new car has been discussed extensively elsewhere on this forum. But for me it is always a new car. The smell and pleasure of driving a new one is any day better than a used one. Add to that the warranties etc that are available and with the reliability factor which is increasing now-a-days with technology improving. Till the time it is not from someone known to you, i suggest you to go for a new car.
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Old 18th February 2019, 12:34   #193
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Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

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Does it make sense now to buy a used Diesel car? I am in two minds about this so would appreciate some guidance.
I asked this question from the relevance of BS VI norms coming into effect next year. Will it lose too much of its value when I want to sell it 3-4 years down the line.
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Old 18th February 2019, 12:39   #194
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Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

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Originally Posted by neoonwheels View Post
I asked this question from the relevance of BS VI norms coming into effect next year. Will it lose too much of its value when I want to sell it 3-4 years down the line.
There have been reports and articles shared here about used Fortuners costing lesser than new Brezzas. There was also one post quoting an article about vehicle models on the brink of discontinuation due to BS 6 that are flooding the used car market at bargain prices (Safaris, Brios etc.) If you're buying used cars at "bargain" prices, how much could you possibly lose when you sell 3 years down the line, I wonder?

Good question.
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Old 18th February 2019, 16:07   #195
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Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

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Does it make sense now to buy a used Diesel car? I am in two minds about this so would appreciate some guidance.
A simple answer will be NO.Four of our cars (no Diesel) are due for replacement, but we are waiting for the new norms to come in before replacing them. After 2020 I am not sure of what engines will be there. I will not try and buy a car which is going to be dead soon.
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