Team-BHP > The Indian Car Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 28th March 2018, 12:19   #91
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Chennai
Posts: 1,421
Thanked: 4,901 Times
Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
Delhi becomes the first Indian city to run on BS-VI fuels, as per a report by ET

If you live in Delhi, you may have felt your car engine running a tad more smoothly of late. The reason is that, unknown to motorists, Delhi has already switched to Bharat Stage-VI (BS-VI) fuels, ahead of the scheduled April 1 launch for the capital.
With the weight of half-knowledge behind me on the topic of BS VI fuels, I have a beef with what ET says here. Would BS VI fuels really cause engines to run smoother than before? I didn't think so before. Now, I feel half-smug and half-curious; torn between "Humbug! BS VI fuels only reduce emissions owing to reduced Sulfur and other contents" and "Really? Smoother engines?"

Can someone please clarify?

Edit
Here's some more reasoning behind my query - the high Sulfur content in earlier grades of fuel also offered lubrication. This lubrication protected engine parts like the fuel injector from friction. With successive BS (and Euro) stages, Sulfur content has been going down. In order to compensate for the corresponding decrease in lubricity, chemical additives have been added by the oil marketing companies. These lubricity additives only retain the same level of lubrication of the fuel; hence there is no chance of excess lubricity in BS VI fuels.

I still feel that ET is reporting irresponsibly when it says our engines run smoother on BS VI fuel.

Last edited by locusjag : 28th March 2018 at 12:40.
locusjag is offline  
Old 28th March 2018, 13:26   #92
Senior - BHPian
 
sgiitk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Gurugram
Posts: 7,924
Thanked: 4,621 Times
Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

Quote:
Originally Posted by locusjag View Post
With the weight of half-knowledge behind me on the topic of BS VI fuels, I have a beef with what ET says here. Would BS VI fuels really cause engines to run smoother than before?

Here's some more reasoning behind my query - the high Sulfur content in earlier grades of fuel also offered lubrication. This lubrication protected engine parts like the fuel injector from friction. With successive BS (and Euro) stages, Sulfur content has been going down. In order to compensate for the corresponding decrease in lubricity, chemical additives have been added by the oil marketing companies. These lubricity additives only retain the same level of lubrication of the fuel; hence there is no chance of excess lubricity in BS VI fuels.

I still feel that ET is reporting irresponsibly when it says our engines run smoother on BS VI fuel.
When has our system bothered with engine survival. Starting with BS-I we allowed engine (and valve seat) wear without thinking, and the same attitude continues. When I was in the UK (1989-91) I could not run my Peugeot 205 on unleaded, due to this. In the worst case I was advised to run a tankful of leaded once in a blue moon.
sgiitk is offline  
Old 28th March 2018, 16:19   #93
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Chennai
Posts: 1,421
Thanked: 4,901 Times
Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
When has our system bothered with engine survival. Starting with BS-I we allowed engine (and valve seat) wear without thinking, and the same attitude continues. When I was in the UK (1989-91) I could not run my Peugeot 205 on unleaded, due to this. In the worst case I was advised to run a tankful of leaded once in a blue moon.
Well, research by a fellow BHP-ian shows that BS VI diesel need not damage BS IV (and older) engines - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...v-engines.html

Please read and share your views. I never knew of older fuel standard changes which caused engine troubles. I did know of the damage leaded petrol did to catalytic converters though.
locusjag is offline  
Old 2nd April 2018, 10:18   #94
Senior - BHPian
 
sgiitk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Gurugram
Posts: 7,924
Thanked: 4,621 Times
Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

At least in the west there would have been some recommendations about using Euro-VI in Euro V and IV vehicles. If none then we are Ok.
sgiitk is offline  
Old 2nd April 2018, 12:30   #95
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Chennai
Posts: 1,421
Thanked: 4,901 Times
Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
At least in the west there would have been some recommendations about using Euro-VI in Euro V and IV vehicles. If none then we are Ok.
I see on Wikipedia (with somewhat adequate justifying links to back it up) that damage to Euro 5 and older engines' fuel seals and pumps are indicated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-...esel#Lubricity

Quote:
However, it is known to cause some seals to shrink and may cause fuel pump failures in Volkswagen TDI engines used in 2006 to pre-2009 models.[citation needed] TDI engines from 2009 and on are designed to use ULSD exclusively
But the claim of damage to older engines is baseless and marked on Wikipedia for needing a proper citation.

If you refer to this PDF article by Shell on its Euro 6 fuel, you'll see that they are adding lubricity additives - https://www.shell.com/business-custo...e-guide-en.pdf

Quote:
The lubrication of modern low-sulphur diesel fuel is improved significantly through: i) the addition of Fatty Acid Methyl Ester (FAME) as a biocomponent, which has high natural lubricity ii) the use of lubricity improver (LI) additives
I think one of us needs to file an RTI with the government or a state-owned Oil Marketing Company to confirm if in India as well, lubricity additives are being added or not.
locusjag is offline  
Old 17th April 2018, 12:01   #96
Distinguished - BHPian
 
volkman10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: --
Posts: 17,083
Thanked: 40,072 Times
Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

Vehicles compliant with BS-VI will take time - early introduction of BS-VI-compliant cars in the capital was nearly impossible.

Quote:
Last year, when public outcry over the severe air quality in the capital had peaked, MoPNG had announced that it would advance the introduction of BS-VI by two years in the capital — from April 1, 2020, to April 1, 2018.
Quote:
Automobile manufacturers on Monday told the SC-mandated Environment Pollution Control Authority that early introduction of BS-VI-compliant cars in the capital was nearly impossible. They said no retrofitment was possible on older vehicles, particularly BS-II and BS-III, either to have a cleaner fleet

Quote:
A huge number of models have to be certified. It’s a huge engineering effort. We are already working day and night to meet the official deadline of April 1, 2020
Link

Last edited by volkman10 : 17th April 2018 at 12:04.
volkman10 is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 17th April 2018, 12:06   #97
Senior - BHPian
 
CARDEEP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NCR
Posts: 3,034
Thanked: 2,049 Times
Infractions: 0/1 (5)
Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

Quote:
Originally Posted by volkman10 View Post
Vehicles compliant with BS-VI will take time - early introduction of BS-VI-compliant cars in the capital was nearly impossible.
This is utter bulls**t, they are running away from simple fact that they need to appeal to Govt for "Scrappage" scheme or sort of for the older non-compliant vehicles.

Anyway these vehicles must be at end of their age. There won't be much loss to either parties.
CARDEEP is online now  
Old 17th April 2018, 16:01   #98
Senior - BHPian
 
sgiitk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Gurugram
Posts: 7,924
Thanked: 4,621 Times
Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

Assuming BS-VI cars make their appearance. They will the Registrations carry BS-VI or will it still show BS-IV. Will make a difference a few years down the line.
sgiitk is offline  
Old 17th April 2018, 16:11   #99
A M
BHPian
 
A M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Panchkula
Posts: 515
Thanked: 509 Times
Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

Should carry BS VI on the RC.
A M is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 22nd April 2018, 12:11   #100
BHPian
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 65
Thanked: 130 Times
Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CARDEEP View Post
This is utter bulls**t, they are running away from simple fact that they need to appeal to Govt for "Scrappage" scheme or sort of for the older non-compliant vehicles.

Anyway these vehicles must be at end of their age. There won't be much loss to either parties.
There are two aspects in the article CARDEEP. The first one is the retro fitting of BS II and BS III vehicles to make it compliant with BS VI emission norms and not BS VI fuel. This is technically impossible as those vehicles are purely mechanical and wont be an easy task to covert them to electronic controlled.

The second aspect is, Centre is pushing for availability of BS VI vehicles in NCR. Even if all technical issues are resolved, the BS VI vehicles wont run efficiently in BS IV fuel which will be the available fuel grade outside NCR. Other aspect we have to keep in mind is that though the technical solutions are already available in EU and US, most of these features are tied to the real world driving cycle. The average vehicle speed there is much more than over here and the DPF feature implementation as is would and issue.
pious_devil is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 24th July 2018, 05:59   #101
BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Chennai/Sydney
Posts: 276
Thanked: 435 Times
Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

This article is worth reading and my hats-off to the amicus for exposing Sh Indian Automobile Manufacturer's double standard while adopting the BS VI standards for Indian market.

Shows how Indian customers have been taken for a ride by these so called manufacturers who simply do not care about anything other than their balance sheets.

Quote:
Meanwhile, the Society of Indian Automobile Manufacturers (SIAM) referred to a government notification of February 20 this year which said that registration of private vehicles manufactured up to April 1, 2020 should be done till June 30, 2020.
Really SIAM? Why have this standard to begin with? Is to difficult to stop manufacturing BS IV vehicles early and start adopting BS VI well in advance?

Quote:
"I am not sure what you (SIAM) are up to. When it is convenient for you then you say no to electric vehicles and when its beneficial, then you are ready for electric vehicles," Justice Lokur observed.
Quote:
"All we are saying is that we have to be little cautious while dealing with your organisation," the bench said.
WOW!!! Says a lot about SIAM. What an eye-opener.



The government should probably make the fuel BS VI compliant across India and not just in NCR.

Article

Last edited by arunramaswamy : 24th July 2018 at 06:11. Reason: Rephrasing the sentences to sound more level headed.
arunramaswamy is offline  
Old 24th July 2018, 07:33   #102
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Delhi / Nagoya
Posts: 290
Thanked: 710 Times
Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

I am surprised by the way the courts are treating the BSVI transition issue. Make no mistake, BS IV to BS VI is a huuuge jump and not just a step up. I do not work in Indian auto industry but I am aware in details of y technicalities involved. It is not so difficult to design a BSVI engine. The challenge is to sustain it in Indian conditions where engine designers have to assume there will be improper maintenance ( read neighborhood garages), excessive dust and impure fuel. The engine is very sensitive to the above factors and solutions need time to check for reliability. The global solutions won't work in India. The OEMs for once need a little time snd breathing space for their upgrades.
Carma2017 is offline  
Old 24th July 2018, 10:14   #103
Distinguished - BHPian
 
volkman10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: --
Posts: 17,083
Thanked: 40,072 Times
Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

Clash of Ministries - Comedy in SC!

Quote:
In a peculiar case, petroleum and environment ministries have taken a contradictory stand before the Supreme Court on banning sale of non-BS-VI-compliant vehicles from April 1, 2020 to realise full benefit of the cleaner fuel.
BUT this stand, however, is contradictory to the submission of ministry of environment and forests :

Quote:
automobile companies should be allowed to sell their inventory of BS-IV vehicles till the end of June 2020 for two wheelers and up to September for four wheelers

The Advocate who is assisting the court as amicus curiae, contended that people are dying of pollution and there was no need to give grace period to auto-makers to sell BS-IV vehicles beyond March 31, 2020

Link
volkman10 is offline  
Old 24th July 2018, 16:03   #104
Senior - BHPian
 
longhorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Chennai
Posts: 1,434
Thanked: 1,070 Times
Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

Never believe the BS doled out by manufacturers. These are the same clowns who said adding airbags alone will increase the cost of entry level hatchbacks by at least 40k. We all now know how that went, with dual airbags, ABS+EBD now available for about 20-25k over the regular variant. As far as I know there is no such techno marvelance required for petrol engines, i.e. they can be easily upgraded from BS IV to BS VI. The challenge if any, is only for the diesel engines, which I'm sure our desi jugaad engineers will find a way out. The most important factor in all this, however, is BS 6 fuel, and that is where our morons in power are dragging their feet. If BS 6 fuel is readily available, everything else will fall in place.
longhorn is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 25th July 2018, 10:38   #105
Distinguished - BHPian
 
volkman10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: --
Posts: 17,083
Thanked: 40,072 Times
Default re: BS6 / BSVI emission norms coming in April 2020!

Maruti Suzuki is on track to meet the BS VI deadline.

Quote:
On BS VI emission norms we are on track. We will definitely have vehicles as per the schedule of April 2020. Time is limited but we are making all efforts to meet BS VI emission norms. Our people are almost working round the clock.
Quote:
Also, the models are being upgraded to meet new safety regulations that will kick in from next year

Specific to safety norms that come in effect from October 2019:

Quote:
regarding the upcoming safety rules, he said already MSI's nine models conform to offset and side impact mandate as well as pedestrian protection, which are yet to be notified.

"So, we are already on course. We will meet all the norms for all the models before the deadline
Link
volkman10 is offline   (2) Thanks
Reply

Most Viewed
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Copyright 2000 - 2021, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks