[bhavik.1991]

Road transport minister of the same government wants petrol & diesel to make way for EVs.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/60417010.cms

I am wondering whether he had opposed the decision or not.

[sri_tesla]

Calm down guys. Toyota or Honda is not doing any favors to the environment by selling these lame hybrids at ridiculous prices. These are overpriced even before GST.

Toyota priced the hybrid model Rs 5 lakhs more than regular model even before GST despite tax advantage for Hybrids then. It does not have any big battery to jack up costs. At worst they should have priced it same as regular model as the tax savings covers the electric motor and other extra equipment costs. But they are pocketing that money in the name of Hybrid.

For those worried about these so called Hybrids, tell me how much long this thing travels on battery alone? Just because it gives better mileage (14 kmpl as someone above mentioned) than its regular counterpart does not mean its better. There are many diesel cars that gives more than 20kmpl.

For those saying Hybrids are pit-stops on the way to electric cars, you guys need to study the auto industry much more, especially the last decades.

Toyota introduced mass market Hybrid in 1997. After 20 years, the electric range of prius increased from 20KM to 40KM. It will take another 2 decades for them to double that.

If not for the proactive govts all over the world (China, California, Netherlands, etc...) and the competition from the likes of Tesla, these traditional automakers will sell the combustion engines for another century in disguise of lame hybrids.

[i74js]

We are finding it miserable that Toyota has stopped / paused the production of Camry and we have other extreme where Singapore has decided to stop the vehicle growth from present 0.25% per year to 0% per year by putting a cap on the total vehicles on the road starting Feb 2018.

https://m-scmp-com.cdn.ampproject.or...ary-2018?amp=1

[Ragavsr]

Originally Posted by i74js

We are finding it miserable that Toyota has stopped / paused the production of Camry and we have other extreme where Singapore has decided to stop the vehicle growth from present 0.25% per year to 0% per year by putting a cap on the total vehicles on the road starting Feb 2018.

https://m-scmp-com.cdn.ampproject.or...ary-2018?amp=1

For goodness sake, please stop making useless comparisons to a place like Singapore.

It's a city state which is only as big as Bangalore at 326 sq km. It has public transport like metros which goes to every locality.

India is a country of 2.3 million sq km. A private car is a necessity because a metro doesn't cover every village and town , nor does it cover every locality in the city. We use cars not only to get around the city but to go to neighbouring villages a, towns and our native.

I am so sick and tired of such meaning less comparisons.
Sorry for OT.

[gopi_rm]

Originally Posted by sri_tesla

For those worried about these so called Hybrids, tell me how much long this thing travels on battery alone? Just because it gives better mileage (14 kmpl as someone above mentioned) than its regular counterpart does not mean its better. There are many diesel cars that gives more than 20kmpl.

For those saying Hybrids are pit-stops on the way to electric cars, you guys need to study the auto industry much more, especially the last decades.

It's not only about FE and CO2 emissions. It is more about NOx and particulate emissions which are apprx. 30 times higher in diesel engines compared to an equivalent pertrol engine and are harmful for humans. So compared to a diesel vehicle, a hybrid with similar FE/CO2 will be much safer espcially for dense urban areas.

In a country like India where uninterrupted power supply is a luxury, it will take a very long time to implement proper charging infrastructure for electric vehicles.

[sri_tesla]

Originally Posted by gopi_rm

It's not only about FE and CO2 emissions. It is more about NOx and particulate emissions which are apprx. 30 times higher in diesel engines compared to an equivalent pertrol engine and are harmful for humans. So compared to a diesel vehicle, a hybrid with similar FE/CO2 will be much safer espcially for dense urban areas.

In a country like India where uninterrupted power supply is a luxury, it will take a very long time to implement proper charging infrastructure for electric vehicles.

I agree about diesel being more hazardous than petrol relatively. But even then petrol cars are not much better either. My point is these are Camry's and accords are not true hybrids. They may give better mileage but does not really travel on battery at all. If India had cars like Chevrolet Volt with 80+ KM electric range then it would have been a worry.

Coming to charging infrastructure, its much easier and faster to setup charging stations. As electric sales pickup, you will see all kinds of companies entering Indian market with charging infrastructure.

Things will change much faster than anyone here believe or even can think of. Cheaper equipment costs, lower foreign funding, competitive auction changed renewable energy (solar and wind) industry in India in just 3 years. Same will happen with the EV vehicle charging. It will not happen overnight (1-2 years) but will surely happen in the next 10 years.

[DImPo]

Originally Posted by sri_tesla

My point is these are Camry's and accords are not true hybrids. They may give better mileage but does not really travel on battery at all. If India had cars like Chevrolet Volt with 80+ KM electric range then it would have been a worry.

The point of discussion is not whether Camry and Accord are good Hybrids or whether they contribute to the enviornment compared to a EV. It is accepted that EVs are the ultimate provided the electrical energy so used in EV is generated through clean sources like Wind/Solar/Hydro. But in India, not less than 67% of electricity is generated through polluting sources like coal and HSD.

However, the point of discussion is the inconsistent government policies which could adversely affect the introduction of Hybrid and EV technology in India. As of Feb'2017, the hybrid vehicles (Whether strong hybrid or mild hybrids) were enjoying both the FAME subsidy and also lower tax rate of around 30%. However, FAME subsidy was withdrawn from 1st April 2017 and GST + CESS for Hybrids was fixed at 43% (from 1st July 2017). Such sudden change of policy gives negative feedback to manufacturers and make them think twice before investing in such technologies in India. What we need is consistency in policies. Just assume that a Company, considering the EV vision of the present government and the present lower GST rate of 12% on EVs, starts investing in India to manufacture EVs but after a couple of years, the policy is reversed and the GST is invcreased on EVs then the company will find its investment a complete loss and unviability of the EV project. Exacty the same thing has happend with Hybrid Vehicles and what is the guarantee that the same shall not happen to EVs

[shyampsunder]

Time to do some myth busting.

Originally Posted by DImPo

The point of discussion is not whether Camry and Accord are good Hybrids or whether they contribute to the enviornment compared to a EV. It is accepted that EVs are the ultimate provided the electrical energy so used in EV is generated through clean sources like Wind/Solar/Hydro. But in India, not less than 67% of electricity is generated through polluting sources like coal and HSD.

Very common myth about electric cars not being clean because the power source is not clean. Even if the entire grid is powered by coal powered power plants, an EV is cleaner than an ICE car. Also a couple of questions:

1. Does an ICE car get cleaner over time like how EVs get cleaner when the power grid goes greener?

2. Do we consider the pollution caused by ICE cars because of refinement of fossil fuels at refineries? When we are ready to criticise EVs for their power source shouldn't we do the same to ICE cars?

https://greentransportation.info/ene...ectricity.html

Originally Posted by gopi_rm

In a country like India where uninterrupted power supply is a luxury, it will take a very long time to implement proper charging infrastructure for electric vehicles.

Another common point of contention. In this case I believe that ICE cars have brought this mentality of thinking about charging infrastructure being akin to our fuel pumps. Charging an EV is more comparable to charging a mobile phone rather than fuelling up a ICE car. I believe we would need only 10% of the fuel pump like stations for our entire fleet to go electric. This is because currently there is no way for a person to fuel up his ICE at home. Every single car needs to visit a fuel station to fuel up. Whereas for an EV only long distance travel requires a traditional charging station.

Obviously setting up the infrastructure required for house/office charging will be difficult but I don't see it being that difficult because the Indian consumer is obsessed with price. If an EV is 80% cheaper to run than an ICE car I definitely see many people overcoming this obstacle. Government regulations will only act as a catalyst in this process.

[Sparks]

Note from Support: Please take the time to type out & space your posts properly. Makes for easier reading by members. Thank you!

Originally Posted by sri_tesla

But even then petrol cars are not much better either. My point is these are Camrys and Accords are not true hybrids. They may give better mileage but does not really travel on battery at all. If India had cars like Chevrolet Volt with 80+ KM electric range then it would have been a worry.

Why does the Camry hybrid come installed with two engines if it cannot run on battery at all? This is precisely why its called a hybrid vehicle. It has no limits on use in the present tense.


The Chevy Volt is a PHEV, which means its a plug in hybrid, a type of vehicle that cannot be used in India as of now.

BMW's have similar PHEV offerings in 3 and 5 series both, so does Mercedes. If the Government can set the rules and taxes and infrastructure straight these cars would hit Indian shores in less than 6 months. The Volvo XC 90 T8 Hybrid is another example.

The BMW 530i currently on sale has start stop, regenerative braking and a battery which can handle all electrical load of the car till charge level drops to 80 percent then the ICE kicks in. The Mercedes also employ similar techniques and extra battery in the boot for better fuel efficiency. We did not see them claiming refunds under FAME .


FAME Subsidy has been withdrawn on cars which made a mockery of the term hybrid by adding misnomers like micro hybrid and SHVS, and marketed diesel vehicles as hybrids which they were not by any stretch of imagination.

Crores of rupees were claimed by Mahindra and Maruti under this scheme. Ciaz diesel was marketed as smart hybrid vehicle and was exempt when odd even rule in Delhi was in effect. This shows how little the government and people in general understand about hybrid vehicles.

FAME subsidy for the Camry and Accord is still available. It's the GST flip flop that has caused this problem.

These cars are perfect for the present and yes. they do run on pure electric power alone.

India is not ready for PHEV as of today.

We want to jump straight to electric only by 2030, which requires infrastructure at a level even USA does not have. A few Scandinavian countries, like Norway are far ahead but read about their electricity production, and other advantages they used to make a real possibility to switch full electric.


Another example, downtown public transport buses in San Francisco are pure electric they have overhead wires deployed all over the city to draw power.

That's commitment and making infrastructure available for public use. Today we are a long way away from that and yet on the other hand the policy changes discourage the introduction and availability of some smart products for India of today. Given the right impetus and support Its a real possibility that no vehicle sold in India will run only on ICE all the time by 2030.

[gopalnt]

I think the govt is more focused on the term "big", "luxury", than "technology". Big Car? Then other factors does not matter to them. And that is very unfortunate thinking in current situation. They should be incentivising sustainable technology rather than blindly looking into only one way.

[carmayogi]

Originally Posted by sri_tesla

Calm down guys. Toyota or Honda is not doing any favors to the environment by selling these lame hybrids at ridiculous prices. These are overpriced even before GST.

Completely agree with them not doing favours. Automakers always paint themselves as victims or suffering in some way. Then they pull a dieselgate or an airbag-gate (can we call it that?).

That being said, the government has basically three responsibilities:
1) Encourage adoption of newer tech
2) Choose the best currently viable option to be promoted
3) Have a coherent long-term strategy

On all these counts, it seems as though we have failed. Hybrids are not a god-given gift to save the planet, far from it. However, for some rich guy sitting in the back seat, he will pollute maybe 40% less and this is a commendable target to aim for. Any sensible government would not raise taxes on a vehicle that offers an improvement towards the aim of being a clean country. What is stunning to me is that on the one hand, taxes are raised whereas on the other hand there is this big talk about moving towards electric and cleaner tech. Contradiction indeed!

For those arguing that diesel is as efficient, that's fine. No need to start the conversation on which is better or worse. Why not have both Petrol & Diesel options offering great mileage so that those who want either can choose either. Petrol hybrid is probably better for us who roam around the city a lot whereas diesels can be for those who have regular long trips. Probably every hotel fleet car should be a hybrid as they sit with the a/c on waiting for memsaheb or saheb to be picked up in style.

So, while this Toyota decision is virtually meaningless in volume or impact, it sends a message to others that they needn't bother with their cleaner/newer tech for India.

[NiInJa]

As far as I remember, the FAME subsidy was removed by government because they came to know how Maruti and Mahindra were making fun of the term 'Hybrid' cars. I also read in newspapers few months ago that a new policy for Electric and Hybrid cars is in process and will be rolled out by end of this year. So lets wait and watch. I am hoping it will be helpful for EV manufacturers.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/58685330.cms

I would have been worried about the government's flip flops if Toyota Camry Hybrid was a car for the masses. Sadly it is not, that gives the government enough time to 'experiment' and come with a proper formula which is not misused by any manufacturer.

Off topic: I dont see Toyota bringing any electric car for the masses in India in near future, while Mahindra and Tata are putting something on the table. Food for thought ?

[Sparks]

I would have been worried about the government's flip flops if Toyota Camry Hybrid was a car for the masses. Sadly it is not, that gives the government enough time to 'experiment' and come with a proper formula which is not misused by any manufacturer.





Off topic: I dont see Toyota bringing any electric car for the masses in India in near future, while Mahindra and Tata are putting something on the table. Food for thought ?

No hybrids in india are mass market. Toyota or Honda does not market their hybrids as mass market. The reva and mahindra e2go were how many people bought it ? Why low range ? impractical at the time and now ? The e2 go plug in is 6 odd lakhs, don't see them selling in numbers. Wonder when baleno alpha and i20 sell in unmentionable numbers.

Case in point xc90 t8 hybrid list price above one crore

The Tesla was a 100 thousand dollar plus car when it debuted. Hardly mass market in USA.

Why single out Toyota or Honda they offered the best as per market maturity, sadly it did not work due policy aiming to tango before it learns to walk.

How many people across india embraced reva or e20 ? If we had we would be all electric vehicle country already, that's if we are brave enough to take our electric cars through a mere puddle of water to reach home (without getting electrified pun intend-ended) food for thought ?

[Stigissimo]

To play devil's advocate, it's also worth noting the following facts:
1. A hybrid (and granted, an electric vehicle too), by definition, requires a battery. Producing batteries is an incredibly environmentally costly endeavor. Therefore, on the margin, a non-plug-in hybrid arguably pollutes more than a normal ICE vehicle since it uses a gasoline engine as well as a battery.
2. The Camry Hybrid (and the apparently morally impervious Prius) uses an NiMH battery, rather than a Lithium-Ion one. Going off of my (admittedly limited) Chemistry experience and this paper, "NiMH batteries may not be perfectly benign to the environment...[and] lithium-ion cells have the least environmental impact in the battery family."

The point I'm really trying to make is that from a purely environmental perspective, the Government's step is rather defensible, and Toyota is actually helping by not selling the Camry Hybrid.
As a long-term strategic play, the flaw in this scheme is obvious: you can't expect Indian car buyers to make the jump directly from a diesel Swift to an electric Nissan Leaf

[bhpfaninblr]

Originally Posted by Stigissimo

As a long-term strategic play, the flaw in this scheme is obvious: you can't expect Indian car buyers to make the jump directly from a diesel Swift to an electric Nissan Leaf

Well put. Though the mileage of a Nissan leaf will be tempting. Key will be its price