[PrideRed]

So many instances of conflict and even after decades Govt. is unable to resolve issues of car transfers. Once you sell the vehicle the first owner has no control unless he lodges a complaint with Police department. Even if the buyer is a perfect gentleman, transfer takes anywhere between a week to months! Who is responsible for any mishap that will happen during this period? After selling only thing you can do is pray to god that no untoward incident occurs.

[Balthazar]

Originally Posted by Axe77

I am not debating the correctness of the judgment in the context of the law.

But I feel the law on this point should be as follows:

In cases where possession is transferred together with all associated documents and complete payment towards legal transfer of ownership, the risk and reward of ownership must move to the person in whose name this is under transfer and who is now in possession of the vehicle. This can be further refined by permitting an interim agency like used car dealer to have that obligation for a period of time exonerating seller from rights as well as liabilities. On matters of insurance the benefit should be capable of vesting with the new possessor via endorsement.

Yes, I would have to agree. This would be a better solution. Before they amended Sec. 2, the person in possession was deemed to be the owner. There were certain issues then, there are certain issues now. Your suggestion is a nice middle ground.

Originally Posted by ka51resident

I read this judgment and it leaves me with one question. What happens when the car is sold to a used-car dealer? We sold two of our vehicles in the last few months and my worry is with test drives from a prospective buyer. We have seen one too many of those examples which have gone wrong in this forum and heavy-footed 'prospective customers' are a dime a dozen.

Though the car(s) is still registered in my father's name, we have taken an acknowledgment from the dealer that the car is sold to that person. Do you think this would be enough?

Well, if a strict interpretation of the law is to be followed, you will be responsible. But in practice, once the dealership has the car, they are responsible till the sale is finalized. But if the car is sold on and the RC not updated, you will be liable.

Originally Posted by turbo

I have a question.
Say a vehicle is 15 years old, but is still in my name.
Will I still be treated as the owner, after the RC has expired?

That's a good question. Extrapolating a technicality. You have a legally inclined mind.

Answer? Yes, you would. The vehicle getting de-listed should not mean that you cease to be the owner. If that were the case then people could just waltz onto your property and take the car away, and you'd have no recourse.

Originally Posted by patron

I had sold my car about 4 years ago. I can still see that the car is still not transferred by the buyer. I had the deal through a dealer. Now, the dealer has moved out of the current premises and also the buyer seems to have moved out from his last known address.

I keep getting traffic violation letters regularly. I am quite perplexed as to how to proceed further. Will it help if I register a police complaint or will it make things worse?

I have outlined a process in a post above, you will need to get the police involved here. Talk to your RTO, they should be able to guide you . General process is to file written complaints with the RTO, and the police. And here's to hoping you have all the documents with you after four years.

[turbo]

Originally Posted by Balthazar

Answer? Yes, you would. The vehicle getting de-listed should not mean that you cease to be the owner. If that were the case then people could just waltz onto your property and take the car away, and you'd have no recourse.

Counter question: what's stopping me from taking the defense that after the validity expired, I sold off the car to a kabadi (scrap seller).

Also if the validity expired, the car is not road legal, and hence was the police's duty to keep it off the road.

[Balthazar]

Originally Posted by turbo

Counter question: what's stopping me from taking the defense that after the validity expired, I sold off the car to a kabadi (scrap seller).

Of course you can, you can take any defense. But, when asked, can you prove it without a reasonable doubt, since the BoP is on you.
Some states require the car to be filmed while it's being scrapped, some require police officers to be present, some require both.

But even before that, there is a system. You inform the RTO by submitting an application, and I think you also need to give them the Chassis plate. The car is then de-registered and only then you can scrap it. May also need to give them the RC.
And in Delhi, all 10-15 year old cars are automatically considered scrap, so I don't know if they need to be de-registered here.

Originally Posted by turbo

Also if the validity expired, the car is not road legal, and hence was the police's duty to keep it off the road

No, it was your duty to keep it off the road. It was up to the Police to enforce it. Unenforceablility is not a defense to violation of law.

[manchandap]

Thanks for bringing up this topic.

I remember reading a news article about Honorable SC's judgement holding a seller liable in a car accident case since the ownership was not transferred in RTO's records i.e. on the RC.

We know that buyers sometimes, intentionally or unintentionally, don't get the vehicle transferred in their names. Sometimes, the 'end user' buyers plan to keep the vehicle for short duration, so they don't get it transferred to their name. The dealers are notorious for this since they need to find a buyer to transfer the vehicle.

A query for the legal minds: Would an agreement on stamp paper between buyer and seller help to absolve the seller of the liability. Few clauses that come to my mind are as follows. Of course these need to be in proper legal language.

• <<seller>> is the rightful owner of the vehicle <<details of vehicle>>
• The vehicle is free from any civil/criminal liability
• The seller has agreed to sell his vehicle to <<buyer details>>
• Buyer will get the vehicle transferred to his/her name within 14 days of the sale at the <<RTO Details>>
• Buyer absolves the seller of any civil/criminal case/liability after execution of this sale and taking physically possession of the vehicle
• Seller can take appropriate civil/criminal action against buyer for failure to transfer the vehicle in his/her name

Excuse my naivety if such agreement is already executed.

[utkarshshukla92]

I have sold my UP registered Rx100 in Delhi a few years ago. RC is now expired but it was on my name when I sold it. I have the buyer's address, Photo ID, and Signatures on the sale deed. Do I need to be worried?. I am in touch with the buyer and RC can be renewed but it would be a costly affair. Looking for your kind advice.

Thank you

Utkarsh

[daredevil]

I sold 3 of my cars to Individuals in last 10 years or so. After reading this thread, I checked in Mparivahan app to see the ownership status of these cars (I could recollect all the RC numbers!). These are not on my name anymore.

I have always ensured that the buyer is an individual and does not look a suspicious case. I dont know whether it is pure luck or what, but all the buyers are from my organization. If you have to lose out on few thousands for such buyers, I prefer those over others.

[Balthazar]

Originally Posted by manchandap

A query for the legal minds: Would an agreement on stamp paper between buyer and seller help to absolve the seller of the liability.[/i][/u]

It is a good idea to enter into an agreement. But, might it save you in the long run?

Short answer, mostly not.

Long answer, it may protect you to some extent, but it would depend on a lot of other factors if the matter was to land on a judge's desk.

For instance, did you proactively track the status of the transfer? If not, then you are liable. The seller can't "sell it and forget it." Since the M.V. Act holds you liable, you must show that you were actively trying to get the buyer to transfer registration.

An agreement shows the intention of the parties to get the cars RC updated, but depending upon how long has passed, it will not absolve you of your responsibility. If it has just been a couple of weeks to a month, this agreement and the ancillary documents will help you, provided the process of transfer has been initiated.

If it has been 6 months or a year and the RC has not been updated, that agreement is not going to help you at all.

Originally Posted by utkarshshukla92

I have sold my UP registered Rx100 in Delhi a few years ago. RC is now expired but it was on my name when I sold it. I have the buyer's address, Photo ID, and Signatures on the sale deed. Do I need to be worried?. I am in touch with the buyer and RC can be renewed but it would be a costly affair. Looking for your kind advice.

Thank you

Utkarsh

Since your RC has expired, the vehicle is not going to be insured.

Driving without insurance in Delhi can land you in jail. As you are the last registered owner, you may be liable.

Since it is a UP registered bike, if I am not mistaken, UP charges a late free for not re-registering on time (₹300/month for bikes, last I checked). Depending upon how long it has been, it will be a costly affair for the buyer, he's responsible for the fines and the fees. It's either that, or spending 3 months in jail when the bike is stopped and the documents are checked.

[FrozeninTime]

I need some guidance in light of this ruling. I am planning to sell my car to a car dealer in exchange for a new car. However the dealer is unwilling to transfer the car registration to his name/ dealership till a he finds a new buyer. Any suggestions?

[Balthazar]

Originally Posted by FrozeninTime

I need some guidance in light of this ruling. I am planning to sell my car to a car dealer in exchange for a new car. However the dealer is unwilling to transfer the car registration to his name/ dealership till a he finds a new buyer. Any suggestions?

No dealer is going to transfer the car to his name. It will end up making your 1st owner car a 3 owner vehicle when a buyer gets his hands on it, reducing it's value.

What you need to ensure is that the dealer promptly informs you when when the sale is finalized, when possession changes hands, and once more when the RC is updated. So you need to have this conversation with him.

You need to impress upon him that the RC has to be updated as soon as possible after the sale, and that you will be following up with him regularly.

[vigsom]

Originally Posted by FrozeninTime

the dealer is unwilling to transfer the car registration to his name/ dealership till a he finds a new buyer

Originally Posted by Balthazar

No dealer is going to transfer the car to his name

It is a gamble one has to take based on the dealer's reputation. Here are a few of my experiences :

Used Car Dealers Type A:
absolutely trustworthy and most corporates sell their cars through them - delivery of car is given to buyer with a delivery note only after transfer forms are signed and photos, copies of address proof, Aadhar, PAN are furnished. They initiate the transfer formalities.

Used Car Dealers Type B :
clean dealings but handover the car with documents and transfer forms to the buyer; the only proof of purchase here is the delivery note of which they retain a duplicate.

Used Car Dealers Type C :
On the move; just buy and sell with no records whatsoever.

A friend sold his Vista to a Type B dealer, who in turn sold the car through his network to another dealer and the car landed with a buyer in another district and hit somebody.

Since the car was in the friend's name at the time of the incident, he was issued summons by the district local court and had to run around proving that the sale was effected, but ended up spending a lot of money in the process.

[daredevil]

Originally Posted by FrozeninTime

I need some guidance in light of this ruling. I am planning to sell my car to a car dealer in exchange for a new car. However the dealer is unwilling to transfer the car registration to his name/ dealership till a he finds a new buyer. Any suggestions?

This is the norm. Dealers (new car dealer or used car dealers) wont transfer it to their names. Since you are buying it from new car dealership (I presume since you are exchanging it for a new car), it should be fine. For them, its BAU process.

[JKBKS]

Originally Posted by Balthazar

It is a good idea to enter into an agreement. But, might it save you in the long run?

Short answer, mostly not.

My limited understanding of law, from reading of a few Supreme Court judgments, is that the intention of parties while agreeing to a contract is a very important decision making point. So while I agree with all the above mentioned precautions, I will do/add the following things/points too if i were to sell my car:
1. I will get the Sale agreement done on a Rs.100 stamp paper and list all the Buyer details (reg mode of payment/details, address, license, aadhaar no. etc.)
2. I will specifically mention a point that says the Buyer agrees/commits to start vehicle transfer activity with the concerned RTO within a week of the sale
3. Not starting the vehicle registration activity with the concerned RTO will point to some kind of a nefarious design/pre-planning to commit an unlawful activity (this language can/needs to be refined further)
4. The Buyer agrees that all the civil/criminal liability will rest with the Buyer from the date of taking the possession of the vehicle
5. The Buyer agrees to indemnify the Seller from any civil/criminal liability that may arise due to the use/abuse of the said vehicle by the Buyer from the date/time of the handover of the vehicle

Ideally one should communicate this to the buyer in the 1st meeting itself so that the non-serious/mal-intentioned buyer backs out on his own. Its better to have the car with yourself rather than selling it in a hurry and keep worrying about the RTO part later...

[blackwasp]

Originally Posted by FrozeninTime

Any suggestions?

An accepted method is to not handover the 2nd key and the RC book till he gets a buyer, or get the Transfer set signed by the dealer in your possession, such that should he dilly-dally, you can submit those papers to the RTO and the car will be transferred on his name.

[FrozeninTime]

Originally Posted by blackwasp

An accepted method is to not handover the 2nd key and the RC book till he gets a buyer, or get the Transfer set signed by the dealer in your possession, such that should he dilly-dally, you can submit those papers to the RTO and the car will be transferred on his name.

According to them it will take them more than a month to find buyer and dealer is unwilling for transfer set.

Originally Posted by daredevil

I presume since you are exchanging it for a new car it should be fine.

Yes, I planning to exchange my car for new car. But supreme court judgement has made it a hassle.

Originally Posted by vigsom

It is a gamble one has to take based on the dealer's reputation. Here are a few of my experiences :

Are authorised car dealership type A?

I want to avoid legal issues in future. Will wait till there is some clarity.