[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Please define a decent engine? Also again how do you know they could have? Do you know their R&D process, their financials? Which company wont want to succeed if they think they could?

A decent engine would be one that's on par with the segment. Both Honda, Hyundai and the VW twins had or still have much better engines including turbo-petrols, diesels etc.

Well Etios was cheap and safe both but as a company you would have to cut corners somewhere to sell at a price with reliability of a Toyota mind you and I thought they cut corner in the interiors

So you are saying that Toyota charges a premium for its reliability? How can you say that a Toyota is more reliable than a Honda or a Hyundai? There is no equivalent of the "J.D. Power's Vehicle Dependability Study" in India, so the reliability you claim is just a perception that may be true when compared VW but certainly not when compared to Hyundai or Honda.

[m8002?]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Please define a decent engine? Also again how do you know they could have? Do you know their R&D process, their financials? Which company wont want to succeed if they think they could?

From GTO's review in 2010

What you won't:
• Merely 87 BHP on tap, and 0 - 100 of 14.8 seconds. Performance equal to 2 segments lower
• Prominent turbo lag below 2,000 rpm. Affects driveability

They could have a great R&D, but what matters is the feeling the customer gets. If the customers feel they are getting ripped off for the price they pay, (s)he will simply move away. Every car maker wants to succeed in the markets they play. Its what they bring to the table that eventually determines the success.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Well Etios was cheap and safe both but as a company you would have to cut corners somewhere to sell at a price with reliability of a Toyota mind you and I thought they cut corner in the interiors.

You keep mentioning about safety. The car got the safety ratings in 2017 I think. Check GTO's review in 2010 at launch when there was no ncap test conducted. So why do you think it is more safer than its competition which also did not have any ncap rating?
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offic...ml#post2179492 (Toyota Etios : Test Drive & Review)

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

They did not want to play a luxury brand, our buying power or rather lack of it makes them seem like a luxury brand.

There you go again blaming the customer. I just randomly picked Jul 2019 sales. Indians bought around 10K of City+Ciaz+Verna combined every month in the same price band. Yaris sold 300 per month. But you think its lack of buying power and us Indian customers don't deserve the generosity of Toyota.

[lsjey]

I think a lot of good points have already been made in this thread for Toyota to notice. Let me just add one more point.

1. Tatas started in PV market late and yet they have matured their cars and are able to make safe cars that are suitable for Indian and by extension the Asian market.
2. Suzuki which is another Japanese carmaker is able to make affordable and reliable cars for Indian market.
3. Hyundai is also able to make affordable and reliable cars.
4. Mahindras are able to innovate and bring in products that are more features and bang for the buck.

Given that these car manufacturers are able to do this, why can't Toyota make products for the Indian and Asian market? This market needs IMO products that are Affordable, reliable and safe. What is wrong in that expectation?

Regards,
lsjey

[RavSam]

Originally Posted by lsjey

I think a lot of good points have already been made in this thread for Toyota to notice. Let me just add one more point.... why can't Toyota make products for the Indian and Asian market? This market needs IMO products that are Affordable, reliable and safe. What is wrong in that expectation?

Regards,
lsjey

The only thing I can think of is that the Indian market is minuscule for them compared to the rest of the world. Not so much for the others mentioned above. They would rather have more profit margin than volume.

That's why I have new appreciation for Renault/Nissan for atleast trying to give it a go even after the Datsun attempt failure.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

A decent engine would be one that's on par with the segment. Both Honda, Hyundai and the VW twins had or still have much better engines including turbo-petrols, diesels etc.

And you also said that VW's arent as reliable? Was there an issue with the performance or reliability or fuel efficiency of the engine in question? If not then you are just arguing academic numbers. In anycase, they never sold the car with its engine being its USP.

There is no one perfect car which is perfect for everyone. It has to suit the requirements of the largest percentage of buyers.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

So you are saying that Toyota charges a premium for its reliability?

No I am saying Toyota did the best that they could have and perhaps decided reliability was more important than interior presentation or features and they were proved wrong by the customer. Taxi drivers on the other had swore by Etios.

The same buyers also buy the so called "overpriced" Fortuners and Innova's and decent number of Glanza's too.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

How can you say that a Toyota is more reliable than a Honda or a Hyundai?

The whole world says so and if you scan through our forum you would come to the same realisation too.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

There is no equivalent of the "J.D. Power's Vehicle Dependability Study" in India, so the reliability you claim is just a perception that may be true when compared VW but certainly not when compared to Hyundai or Honda.

Certainly yes compared to Hyundai (again you are free to search the forum for issues with Hyundai's, some not so serious and some grievous issues) whether you like it or not. Honda's dont come cheap either and they have also had build issues in the recent past as well - cutting corners to meet the target pricing for the market. The market may or may not agree.

Toyota being reliable is NOT a perception. The so called overpriced Fortuner and Innova still fly off the shelves. Used car market is a very good indicator of the reliability and Toyota's have excellent resale values. Look at the pricing a used Fortuner with more than 100,000 kms on clock commands and then check in again. Why do you think that is?

Originally Posted by m8002?

From GTO's review in 2010
They could have a great R&D, but what matters is the feeling the customer gets. If the customers feel they are getting ripped off for the price they pay, (s)he will simply move away. Every car maker wants to succeed in the markets they play. Its what they bring to the table that eventually determines the success.

And the same Corolla also came with a perfectly okay petrol engine as well. Toyota is a conservative company and their engine's are never about absolute power or torque anyway. That said, the diesel engine was a dud for the segment and customer voted with their wallets. I am no position to know why they decided to launch Corolla diesel with that engine, all I can say is that as a customer I wont buy Corolla diesel at the price with that engine. What I also know for sure is that they did not deliberately set themselves to fail. It was a calculated business decision that did not work for them.

I guess the same customer agrees with what they offer with the "overpriced" Fortuner and Innova. Its the same kind of argument but in opposite - they are greedy? So why dont they price the Fortuner at a crore since they are greedy?

Originally Posted by m8002?

You keep mentioning about safety. The car got the safety ratings in 2017 I think. Check GTO's review in 2010 at launch when there was no ncap test conducted. So why do you think it is more safer than its competition which also did not have any ncap rating?
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offic...ml#post2179492 (Toyota Etios : Test Drive & Review)

How does it really matter when it got eventually tested, that it was found to be safe?

Originally Posted by m8002?

There you go again blaming the customer. I just randomly picked Jul 2019 sales. Indians bought around 10K of City+Ciaz+Verna combined every month in the same price band. Yaris sold 300 per month. But you think its lack of buying power and us Indian customers don't deserve the generosity of Toyota.

When did I blame the customer? You said why Toyota couldn't "disrupt" the Indian market with super safe reliable cars? I am saying they did have a reliable, safe and very reasonably priced Etios but it didnt work for them. Bad business decision but you are in no position to answer why they did, what they did. You can only say what you did not like in the car as a customer.

You argument is kind of like - Why can't Honda sell a city at the price of 6 lakhs? That would disrupt the market? Why do you think most companies have to come up with India special cars or dilute their global models to succeed in our market? And how many of them are actually making real money off of our market? May be Toyota has decided that it is not worth the hassle.

[Balaji31582]

I am trying to compose the details based on my Etios ownership. The one below in the following thread may help my fellow team bhpians to get some details specifically on Etios from a current owner.

I see lot of our fellow bhp-ians referring to Etios as we have moved towards concluding about Toyota based on the overall product portfolio for the failure of Yaris sales.

Etios as a product didn't start well. To understand our customer who were used with the highness of corolla, camry and for that case the innova and the rugged qualis, its a pretty annoying launch with so much issues.
But during the fag end of Etios lifecycle, it was iteratively improved as a Product for a normal family who wants to take it to desired destinations.

Hopefully as an owner of Etios Diesel I could add my perspective to bring back the Yaris discussion

Space, comfort - 595 litres boot which can fill any airport luggage and can have 3 people sit comfortably. Its a proper 5 seater. FYI - My mom has her Knee transplanted in both knees and she never had issues for ingress and egress.

Driveability, fuel consumption, etc - Compared to my earlier beat diesel this is a hoot to drive. I have taken this car on a 12 hour drive with family of 5 from thick traffic of chennai to descending hills of ooty (kalhatti, the infamous hairpin bends towards masinagudi). No sweat! It performed well with an approx mileage of 18 - 19kmpl and with higher triple digit speeds above 150KMPH rarely.(Respected Mods, please feel free to remove this line if you think it's not prescriptive to mention the speeds. Just a disclaimer, As a responsible fellow bhpian, I am ain't claiming that its safe to drive at this speeds)

Structural strength - 4 stars from Jan 2016 model. Mine is manufactured in Feb 2016.

Running Cost - average from anywhere between Rs.3000 till Rs.5000. The smiles package was stopped once the GST came in. I have done 70K kms so far and I haven't changed my brake pads, brake disc, fuel filter, coolant, etc. The tyres were changed at 40k regular intervals like for any others. Mentioning this because we drove the Etios like how we did the Beat. For a quick comparison in my beat diesel, I used to change disc every 22,500 kms approx. I volunteer myself to get the 3M care from toyota service and for those the bills will vary. This I do at toyota itself looking at the way they complete the cleaning work. I have got one of the suspension arms changed under warranty. This happened after a particular incident in sriperumbudur when I dropped my car's front right wheel into a pothole. No rattles, no breaking of panels, etc. With the scratches that my wife and me have given her, she is willing to take any beatings.

Even after its production has stopped, I am confident to keep this drive for another 10 years easily considering the easy & economical ownership I am going through so far.

Will I buy or suggest an Etios if its still in production?
yes, as a beginner Car for a family your money is worth putting on an Etios provided you don't see your car as a style statement as unfortunately Etios wasn't made for that.

Will I buy a car from toyota? - Yes only if its a true Toyota product and not a rebadged one. Sorry to any specific owners of rebadged models and no offence meant. I am not willing to spend a huge grand on fortuner and neither on innova. For that case on any other brands so called SUVs because its all north of 20L. I can wait for 5 more years and see if I could afford an e-SUV as Etios can stay beyond that lifetime. In case I need a new one as my Kids are growing, I have started to think should I go and buy XL6 as my next car as I assume there could be some sense of best practices shared between Toyota and suzuki at the backend.

Hope this clarifies on Etios as a overall package and no, my intention is not to go head on reply to our friends who are thinking Etios wasn't a product like how it has to be, but just wanted to clarify few Notions that aren't fact or correct.

[Latheesh]

Toyota is angry that we Indians did not lap up their 3200 Crores Q-Class project back in 2010.They did not make any major investments after that and kept complaining about our policies. Now they are happy with Innova+Fortuner numbers and selling rebadged Maruti cars.
Yaris is a good car but it had few issues and launch price was more than Honda City in 2018. Fit, finish, and overall quality was notch above Honda City.

[Kosfactor]

As far as I know the Toyota rebadged Ciaz is arriving soon and Yaris wont make sense anymore. It should keep the dealers happy.

On the other hand, rebadged vehicles is a sign of an impending exit from our market for Toyota, hope that is not the case.

[shreevishnu]

Originally Posted by H0RSEPOWER

While I largely agree with the other part that you have stated in your post, I would beg to differ a bit here. Yes, Renault-Nissan are trying to compete with Maruti in the low priced segment. But their products are not unsafe as compared to Maruti. Kiger, Triber, Magnite all scored 4* safety rating, which no other car from Maruti’s stable in the same price band achieved. The USP of these cars are awesome space management(Triber). Providing 100 BHP turbo petrol engined cars and giving an option of CVT; having option of 4 airbags or advanced passive safety features. They do have modern looking exterior & interior. They are ahead of Maruti in most of these aspects & they have done all these while keeping the price in check. A lot of other manufacturers failed to do the same and as a result are not able to keep up with the competitive market & perishing. Instead of blaming the market, they could rather learn from this model of Renault-Nissan while giving a even better engine/ dynamics.

Yes, now Renault Nissan have sorted out their game now but there was a period when nothing they did worked as well (unsafe Redi-go, Go, Go+, sneaky marketing on Duster-based-for-India, looks almost identical to Renault Kaptur, Captur ) & the badge engineering without much differentiation Nissan/Renault Micra & Sunny twins.

I see a future where TKM and MSIL will have well differentiated but based on MSIL platform cars in the hot-for-india segments where MSIL has current dominant marketshare. (All the NEXA Maruti's will have a Toyota counterpart with differentiation)

The upcoming Creta rival would be interesting to see, whether its a Daihatsu platform or new MSIL one.

Where Toyota is good, there will be no MSIL product as such. (Innova, Fortuner, Hilux segment). The Corolla Altis, Camry, etc sedan segment is largely dying, expect Toyota to not bother with much here.

I've seen a lot of talk on the RAV4, but hard to make a compelling Value proposition in a market where a tough body on frame fortuner sells at a price point similar to where a refined RAV4 could sell.

[m8002?]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

And the same Corolla also came with a perfectly okay petrol engine as well. Toyota is a conservative company and their engine's are never about absolute power or torque anyway. That said, the diesel engine was a dud for the segment and customer voted with their wallets. I am no position to know why they decided to launch Corolla diesel with that engine, all I can say is that as a customer I wont buy Corolla diesel at the price with that engine. What I also know for sure is that they did not deliberately set themselves to fail. It was a calculated business decision that did not work for them.

I guess the same customer agrees with what they offer with the "overpriced" Fortuner and Innova. Its the same kind of argument but in opposite - they are greedy? So why dont they price the Fortuner at a crore since they are greedy?

Ultimately its the value of the package at a given price. The company is free to price its car at any price they want. The customer will vote with his wallet.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

You argument is kind of like - Why can't Honda sell a city at the price of 6 lakhs? That would disrupt the market?

Disruption doesnt mean just low pricing. I consider i20 a disruptor in the hatch space. They loaded it with features and priced it high. It still sold like crazy. They did not do it by undercutting the then king Swift. Duster disrupted the sedan market, though Creta later got away with all the gains. Duster/Creta did not not price themselves below Ciaz/City/Verna to get sales.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

How does it really matter when it got eventually tested, that it was found to be safe?

But you and I do not know if there were any structural changes done after launch, right? In 2010, I see two competing cars with the no ncap rating, I would judge the safety levels to be the same.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

When did I blame the customer? You said why Toyota couldn't "disrupt" the Indian market with super safe reliable cars? I am saying they did have a reliable, safe and very reasonably priced Etios but it didnt work for them. Bad business decision but you are in no position to answer why they did, what they did. You can only say what you did not like in the car as a customer.

We seem to agree here on bad business decision. I feel they did not launch a car for the market and failed but you feel the market did not buy their great cars and they failed. Differing points of view, lets say

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Why do you think most companies have to come up with India special cars or dilute their global models to succeed in our market? And how many of them are actually making real money off of our market? May be Toyota has decided that it is not worth the hassle.

In fact, almost all India specific models have failed. So you need to be asking Toyota (and VW and Ford ) why come up with crappy India specific models? Instead it makes a lot of sense to bring in RHD models of successful cars from their international range.
Maruti : Alto, WagonR, Swift, Baleno all are sold in Asian and European markets. I think Dzire is the only India model that is successful.
Hyundai : i10, i20, Verna, Creta and above cars are again international products. I think the Xcent might be India specific but it doesnt sell much.
VW : You know how Ameo fared compared to Polo or Vento.
Ford : The limited success it saw are international models like Ikon, Fiesta, Ecosport and Endeavour.
Honda : City is sold in multiple Asian markets
And still the car makers try to develop cheap cars for India and blame everyone else but themselves.

[Black_Star]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

On the other hand, rebadged vehicles is a sign of an impending exit from our market for Toyota, hope that is not the case.

Pretty sure it wont happen anytime soon, TKM is a joint venture between Toyota and Kirloskar, with Suzuki holding partial stake. So to quit India they have to agree with all the partners before that.

Further if they were planning to exit India then why bother doing a joint venture with Suzuki in the first place.

[anjan_c2007]

The discontinuation as per reports is due to a year long below par sales in a market dominated by the Hyundai Verna and Honda City according to TKIM. They have also added Maruti Ciaz as a best seller in the segment in a later para in their press release. Also they didn't forget the Nissan Sunny in this segment, but stopped short of labelling it as a best seller.

The last production of the Yaris was in April 2021, when 237 cars were manufactured. The discontinuation is wef 27.09.21. TKIM says spares will be supplied for the next ten years to owners.

Yaris is the third model of TKIM to be discontinued since the last two years, the other two being the Corolla Altis and the Etios line of cars when BS VI norms became effective.

Link:
https://m.economictimes.com/industry...w/86550234.cms

Apart from their two bread earners, the Innova Crysta and the Fortuner, the top car maker has to do cross badging from Maruti for its Glanza and Urban Cruiser. Following up soon is perhaps the cross badged Toyota Belta (?), essentially a Maruti Ciaz.

Strange that a leading world car maker as father disowns its own children (read car models) and now becomes step father for foster children (read Marutis) .

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by ganesc

They should have waited a year or two and brought this instead - Yaris Cross, a baby Lexus by style, probably with a better nose job. Still worth a try for Toyota I would say as they have the platform....New Yaris sedan didn’t do well in any markets if I recall correctly....On a side note, how I wish Maruti reworks toyota’s 1.5 diesel and bring it in their cars!

They could have brought the Yaris Cross, Corolla Cross or even the tailormade for India's sub 4m norms Raize to the Indian market. They won't. They are planning to cover the whole 10-20 lakhs segment with the Creta rivalling D22 jointly developed with Maruti based on the DNGA platform.

The Yaris that we got here is a good seller in the traditional Toyota strong holds of SE Asia and GCC market.

You meant Maruti's 1.5l diesel? Both Toyota and Maruti has steered clear of small diesels. Smallest Toyota diesel engine remaining is 2.4l GD engine. Though, if Marayota doesn't launch a full blown hybrid in the D22 project, they better dust off the 1.5l diesel and make it into BS6.

[5kmiles]

If there is one car company I don't mind seeing fail, it is Toyota. Hugely over priced, under specced, poor portfolio, lack of focus on market, etc to name a few. Toyota in India is not a patch on Toyota globally and that's such a shame in a market that gave it so much love.

Also, for Yaris, not much worked in its favor from get go. Uncompetitive product dumped further by uncompetitive pricing. Waiting for Tata and Mahindra sedans to fix this segment some day.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

The whole world says so and if you scan through our forum you would come to the same realisation too.

The whole world doesn't say so. Also, there are much more Citys, Vernas, Ventos & Rapids in our forum than Yaris', so not the best indicator,

I have lived at various points of my life in various countries of the Gulf and Europe while I have very close friends living the US and Canada, so my views aren't localized. The reason Toyota is popular in most countries is not because it is more reliable than an equivalent Hyundai or Honda but because of the easy availability of parts and that's because of just how popular Toyota is as a brand. This is also the reason why Toyotas are not as popular as other European brands in Europe, because Toyota parts there aren't as cheap.

We use to own a 2012 Hyundai Accent (Verna in India) as a beater car when we were in Saudi which my father ran for 300,000 km within 3 years because my dad had to run frequent 500 km round trip every week, all he did was do the regular maintenance for the car as prescribed. It wasn't rare to see Hyundai Elantra & Sonata taxis that ran for 500,000 km in Saudi. How much more reliability could you possibly need? So, if a Elantra/Sonata can run for 500k while giving you a better interior and more features, what exactly are you paying for in a Toyota?

I agree that Toyota is a brand that makes very reliable cars & I've nothing against the brand. Infact, I drove a 2015 Camry in Dubai till last year when I had to leave. But I disagree with the notion that Toyota is much more reliable than other brands and hence can cut costs when it comes to the interior and features. Toyota understands this as well, thats why their latest cars are well-designed and well-loaded but the now discontinued Indian version of the Yaris isn't among them.