[Carpainter]

Originally Posted by RaghuVis

can any economics expert (Not Keyboard activist) explain how government is able to keep a check on Inflation despite this much of increase in fuel prices? By now, we should have started paying very high money for all commodities (not little high but very very high), commodity transportation associations should have started nation wide strikes, commodities would have gone in scarce in turn which would again jack up prices of stuff etc. Is there something missing? How is government, be it state or central government able to manage this?

I don't know about your place but where I'm from, groceries, fruits and vegetables are getting expensive every passing day for all the reasons you've stated above. And even though we are still under partial lockdown, private bus and taxi owners' association have stated they have no intention to ply their trade at this diesel prices if fares are not increased manifolds. Well state govt. wouldn't do that officially but unofficially we'll have to spend more for transportation in public transport also.

Originally Posted by norhog

But from a broader perspective, just take a step back and think. It is not so bad. This will save unnecessary travel with the options available for doing most things on line.
I think this is a move to push the middle class more and more towards public transport.

Please don't take it personally but your words sound funny to me. It's like saying that if you can't afford enough food to eat, it's good for you because you'll not suffer from food poisoning or diarrhoea

Originally Posted by norhog

Most cities in India now have METRO railways. Either fully functioning or soon to start. This will definitely make the middle class person use public transport for regular transportation and private vehicles only for occasions.

Metro railways is a good medium for public transport no doubt but you can't reach your last mile destination in it. You'll probably have to hire a taxi/auto or bus to get there. These are not available everywhere. Also, what about those places where there are not metro or suburban train service available. What about the carrying cost of agricultural produce. Not sure they can be carried in a metro coach.

Originally Posted by norhog

Also as this lockdown has shown, a vast majority of white collar working force, across the industry spectrum can get most work done from home by using various online platforms, there is simply no need to travel regularly to "place of work".
So with good public transport in cities and metropolitan areas and walk/cycle to work and work from home, this price rise should be OK.

This was personal transportation. Now economics of the household.
Money saved from regular personal transport, by way of work from home and using public transport, basically NOT using private transport, some percentage of it can be used to absorb cost of increase in grocery and food price, owing to increased transport cost.

So in the NET SUM game, it won't be so bad as it is being made out to be.

Here you're talking about only a particular group of population. Believe me there are more people in India other than those white collar working force you said. Also, as per you, if people start to spend less on fuel because of high price and can afford to stay home and still earn enough money to pay for inflated prices of commodities, then what's the use of high taxes for the government in the first place. How will it earn the higher taxes to pay for public welfare and infrastructure like the Central Vista if people stay home and don't buy fuel at all.

Originally Posted by norhog

Also, as our country, INDIA, becomes more affluent and number of middle class persons increase in the population, we do not have the infrastructure to absorb so many private vehicles. Getting people used to public transport at middle class levels will surely help.
If you look at Asian cities like Tokyo, Singapore, vast majority, even presidents and CEOs, use public transport for daily transportation, even though they have nice cars parked in their garages for occasional use for a trip to golf course or out of town.

I, on the contrary, think India in general is getting poorer and middle class is witnessing erosion of wealth after the pandemic. Only thing is the rich and poor gap is increasing. Also, I hope you're aware that it's futile to compare cities like Tokyo and Singapore to any cities of ours. It's better if you compare our cities to the likes of Dhaka, Lahore etc. That would be a bit fair comparison. When people in this forum advocate cars over motorbikes for safety, it's pointless to suggest using cycles to work or use public transport that are almost non existent in some tier 2, tier 3 and rural places.

Now coming back to the title, those who are thinking that making EVs mainstream would solve the problem, only thing I'd like to say to them is don't underestimate our Government. They have more innovative thinkers than you can think of.

[Tucker48]

Although the govt is looting us for the dream of a better future but high inflation is inevitable in near future. The cost of all things is going up or the value of fiat money is going down. USA printed 40% more money in last one year alone. Now we have 40% more dollars in circulation as compared to pre pandemic. Naturally, the cost of all other things will go up even if they have to hold their pre pandemic value. On top of that we have enormous taxes forced upon us by our beloved govt (no political party in particular). More than 100% tax to buy a car and to run a car. I think a vehicle gives 5-10 times more tax to the govt relative to it's value in it's lifetime.

Owning a vehicle is a sin in India as defined by the govt not long ago. And that means we all are sinners. By the way, how many times we have to bathe in the holy river to wash away our sins. once per car or once per ride or once per refueling?

[MOUNTAINMAN]

Looking at the Govt's dependence on Fuel for funds, it looks like building EV Infrastructure and incentivizing/subsidizing EV might take a backseat for a while.

With limited driving these days I don't feel the direct pinch but once the pandemic gets over I know I'll have to shell out 4400 for a tank full (before 3500), thats 900 more and if you refuel twice a month then the monthly fuel expenses will be 1800 rupees more.

[for_cars1]

Originally Posted by Turbohead

... scoff at Europeans cycling to work but now it makes so much sense!

It may be just me but I've become a full blown miser after starting to work.

Very hilarious post

Originally Posted by Axe77

....then cycling to and fro work is actually an option. Assuming there are shower facilities of course.

In the UK, most of the cyclists use the footpath which is legal too. Reason? Safety! Vehicles and cycles don't mix well.
Most of the European places have dedicated cycle tracks, so Europeans can cycle in a safe environment away from fast automobiles.

Like it or not, the fact remains that cycling on our roads is a very dangerous and high risk proposition. Everybody right from the two wheeler to the Auto-Rikshaw is hell bent on pushing the cyclist to the corner and some more.

People(regular cyclists) here may get comfortable over time and not see it as high risk, but statistically, cyclists are the ones who end up with grevious injuries in most accidents if they are involved.

So the probability of fuel costs saved by cycling ultimately paying for the hospital bill will be still high given our road and cycle-unfriendly conditions, unless, there is a genuine effort to create dedicated cycle tracks.

[Axe77]

Originally Posted by for_cars1

.

Like it or not, the fact remains that cycling on our roads is a very dangerous and high risk proposition.

People(regular cyclists) here may get comfortable over time and not see it as high risk, but statistically, cyclists are the ones who end up with grevious injuries in most accidents if they are involved.

So the probability of fuel costs saved by cycling ultimately paying for the hospital bill will be still high given our road and cycle-unfriendly conditions, unless, there is a genuine effort to create dedicated cycle tracks.

You are absolutely right on all fronts. I would add that even if there are cycling tracks, cyclists wont be better off because I don’t see driving habits in our country changing.

One of the reasons, cyclists are even more exposed than even a motorcycle is because while they cannot speed up as much as a motorcycle, the speed of a cycle on a semi empty road is such that almost every vehicle is overtaking him constantly thereby increasing the risk of someone hitting him. The motorcycle is at least overtaken lesser.

BUT,
our road conditions are so bad that there is an inherent danger in many activities we undertake today. Of course I agree that the outcome for a cyclist is far worse being more exposed, but I’m just saying. A two wheeler rider even at 40 - 50 kmph is every bit as exposed on our roads, given the vagaries of changing surfaces, potholes, unmarked speed breakers, sudden obstacles, bad drivers etc etc. A senior doctor in Mumbai died a few years ago while walking (wading) home in Mumbai rains because he fell through an open manhole.

So, yes. The danger in our country is pretty much in every activity. I admit its higher for cyclists. I know far too many recreational cyclists who’ve died or have been badly hurt for no fault of theirs while cycling on near empty roads early AM. But I wouldn’t let that be a reason to abstain. In fact I’d add that cycling in heavy traffic is actually safer than cycling at 6 am because there are less speeding cars around you. Ultimately, you will find your comfort zone if you want to pursue this.

[norhog]

Originally Posted by SN88

Hi,
1. The govt does not get to decide what is necessary and unnecessary travel for anybody. Let that discretion be with ones own mind.

Govt is nudging you in this regard by increase in fuel price.

Originally Posted by SN88

2. Your defence of the govt hiking prices so that the middle class will use public transport makes no sense. If the infrastructure was supportive of the local busses and trains then it is a no brainer that everyone will travel by public transport, but the point is can public transport support every person in a city? Of course not. The govt has no right to decide how the middle class or rather anyone chooses to travel. If all of Mumbai starts travelling by trains and metros then guess the catastrophe.

Agree, the infra should be increased at least 4 to 5 times in Metro cities and T2 and T3 towns. But towns in T2 and T3 category can make do with rickshaws and proper frequency bus service, preferably electric bus developed by our own TATA and LEYLAND.

Originally Posted by SN88

3. So as per your understanding of the govt's intent, people who do not have the luxury of work from home in so many work fields should bear the brunt of this increase in fuel costs? This at gains of the ones who are saving money by not using private transport and using that gains for increased grocery expense? What ?

Not at all. People who need to go on site must be compensated by their employers, by way of travel allowance, petrol bill for their private transport or send a office car/van for pick up and drop. We can find ways.

Originally Posted by SN88

4. Your examples of Tokyo, Singapore, Hongkong if I may add to your list have a complete different demograph and work culture to most of Indian cities. Their work places are designed concentrated in certain areas where metros connect beautifully from every part of a city unlike Mumbai where work areas are spread in every corner and not a particular " business area". Out there you can literally walk from any place into a metro station within 10 minutes. Can you do that in the major Indian cities ? forget about tier 2 and tier 3 cities.

YES, public infrastructure is limited in our nation, but it must be improved. A high fuel price will remove the hurdles in its way. (Hopefully the public demand will be strong in this regards) Just see METRO line 3 of Mumbai. What a mess it is with all the political rivalry masquerading as environmental activism. If there is pressure by common people to have public infrastructure, the political masters wont take such decisions. Lands will be acquired and finances will be arranged. It will also boost our local rail coach making industry.

Originally Posted by SN88

All I can say is we are tax paying citizens and we should get BASIC products , services etc at a reasonable cost. We can choose how to manage our expenses rather than forced by a Shepherd into a cramped train!!

In my opinion the basics are there, we are discussing "privileges'". In your drivers license, it will be written, "driving is not a right, it is a privilege'".

Originally Posted by Carpainter

I don't know about your place but where I'm from, groceries, fruits and vegetables are getting expensive every passing day for all the reasons you've stated above.

Do you have details or is it just a cliché statement? Does your shop keeper sell grocery items over the MRP citing high fuel price? If yes, you can take action and take him to consumer court.

Originally Posted by Carpainter

Please don't take it personally but your words sound funny to me. It's like saying that if you can't afford enough food to eat, it's good for you because you'll not suffer from food poisoning or diarrhoea

Well not diarrhea, but yes, with less food you will stay fitter. Most Indians who are middle class and above have questionable health/fitness standards. Every one sports a tummy and has high BP or Diabetes or something of that sort. In a way COVID was and very sadly enough, cleansing out the un fit. Please don't mind this statement as we as a species were not getting any fitter. It is painful to see your loved one go and no words can console you in such a time, but letting the unfit go is good for our ecology and environment. We humans are simply too many out there and that itself is the cause of all environmental issues. Too many of us are using up this planets resources.

Originally Posted by Carpainter

Metro railways is a good medium for public transport no doubt but you can't reach your last mile destination in it. You'll probably have to hire a taxi/auto or bus to get there. These are not available everywhere. Also, what about those places where there are not metro or suburban train service available. What about the carrying cost of agricultural produce. Not sure they can be carried in a metro coach.

Last mile can be taken by a electric rickshaw or a electric cab. We need to plan and develop infrastructure in that way.

Originally Posted by Carpainter

Here you're talking about only a particular group of population. Believe me there are more people in India other than those white collar working force you said. Also, as per you, if people start to spend less on fuel because of high price and can afford to stay home and still earn enough money to pay for inflated prices of commodities, then what's the use of high taxes for the government in the first place. How will it earn the higher taxes to pay for public welfare and infrastructure like the Central Vista if people stay home and don't buy fuel at all.

This paragraph seems to be leaning towards decisions made by a certain political party. Of course, when there is discussion regarding prices of any thing, politics will creep in. That is the whole reason for government and political system, so that we as citizens get to live work and conduct ourselves fruitfully in generation of wealth and resources of the nation, ECONOMY.

Originally Posted by Carpainter

I, on the contrary, think India in general is getting poorer and middle class is witnessing erosion of wealth after the pandemic. Only thing is the rich and poor gap is increasing. Also, I hope you're aware that it's futile to compare cities like Tokyo and Singapore to any cities of ours. It's better if you compare our cities to the likes of Dhaka, Lahore etc. That would be a bit fair comparison. When people in this forum advocate cars over motorbikes for safety, it's pointless to suggest using cycles to work or use public transport that are almost non existent in some tier 2, tier 3 and rural places.

This is another cliché statement, used by people in gatherings with friends and relatives. Do you have any data to back up this claim that there is significant erosion of wealth. If you give figures of stocks, please note they will definitely change as things normalize.

Originally Posted by Carpainter

Now coming back to the title, those who are thinking that making EVs mainstream would solve the problem, only thing I'd like to say to them is don't underestimate our Government. They have more innovative thinkers than you can think of.

That is exactly their job, they will keep doing it.

[batish]

Originally Posted by norhog

Govt is nudging you in this regard by increase in fuel price.

Agree, the infra should be increased at least 4 to 5 times in Metro cities and T2 and T3 towns. But towns in T2 and T3 category can make do with rickshaws and proper frequency bus service, preferably electric bus developed by our own TATA and LEYLAND.

Not at all. People who need to go on site must be compensated by their employers, by way of travel allowance, petrol bill for their private transport or send a office car/van for pick up and drop. We can find ways.

YES, public infrastructure is limited in our nation, but it must be improved. A high fuel price will remove the hurdles in its way. (Hopefully the public demand will be strong in this regards) Just see METRO line 3 of Mumbai. What a mess it is with all the political rivalry masquerading as environmental activism. If there is pressure by common people to have public infrastructure, the political masters wont take such decisions. Lands will be acquired and finances will be arranged. It will also boost our local rail coach making industry.


In my opinion the basics are there, we are discussing "privileges'". In your drivers license, it will be written, "driving is not a right, it is a privilege'".


Do you have details or is it just a cliché statement? Does your shop keeper sell grocery items over the MRP citing high fuel price? If yes, you can take action and take him to consumer court.


Well not diarrhea, but yes, with less food you will stay fitter. Most Indians who are middle class and above have questionable health/fitness standards. Every one sports a tummy and has high BP or Diabetes or something of that sort. In a way COVID was and very sadly enough, cleansing out the un fit. Please don't mind this statement as we as a species were not getting any fitter. It is painful to see your loved one go and no words can console you in such a time, but letting the unfit go is good for our ecology and environment. We humans are simply too many out there and that itself is the cause of all environmental issues. Too many of us are using up this planets resources.

Last mile can be taken by a electric rickshaw or a electric cab. We need to plan and develop infrastructure in that way.

Sir is everything alright? Any plans on coming out of La La Land in near future? Your whole argument is around this should or would happen if that happens.
Everyone sports a tummy? Everyone? We are a country whose urban poverty line is 1286 per month. PER MONTH. Approximately Rs 43/day. You think this is what is making people fat?

Haven't seen a bizarre logic than this. Leave this statement. Do you have any idea how price of diesel affects farming sector or do you think we can have electric tractors and other agricultural equipment for that?

Which hawker charges MRP for vegetables? If he says Litchis are 150/kg. I must remind him to charge less else I'll see him in court?

By your logic if government increases income tax, is it nudging us to sit idle?

Naive of me thinking, the supporters of this establishment would be rational after seeing the situation we are in. *Sigh*

[JithinR]

Originally Posted by batish

Sir is everything alright? Any plans on coming out of La La Land in near future?

Haven't seen a bizarre logic than this. Leave this statement.

Naive of me thinking, the supporters of this establishment would be rational after seeing the situation we are in. *Sigh*

Every Governments die hard supporter will contort themselves to explain away every stupid decision their beloved leader takes. This is why I hate personality politics. Any time a politician indirectly projects that he and only he and only he can save a nation, I start worrying for that particular country going the way of Nazi Germany.

But in our dear fellow member's case you only need to look at this statment of his to understand his world view.

In a way COVID was and very sadly enough, cleansing out the un fit

At this point, I think it prudent for me to adopt the same strategy I take when encountering a crazy person on the street...not my problem.

[Carpainter]

Attention Mods: The below post can go off topic and can be deleted if necessary.

Originally Posted by norhog

Do you have details or is it just a cliché statement? Does your shop keeper sell grocery items over the MRP citing high fuel price? If yes, you can take action and take him to consumer court.

I don't really want to start a new argument with you but just to clear some of my own doubts. Do you think every statement should be backed by statistical data? Is there any solid statistics behind declaring Finland as the world's happiest country or for that matter Pak as a country is happier than India other than just some random survey. Still if you insist, here is one for you
https://indianexpress.com/article/ex...tlier-7334810/

It doesn't matter the exact reasons being fuel price or something else but what matters is how much your household spending has gone up for whatever reason. Whether your white collar job can keep you insulated from it or not is a different matter. Not everything has a MRP sir. I have a friend who is in paper packaging business and he says the raw material cost has skyrocketed in last few months. I'm sure it's the same for many other businesses. They don't give you a MRP for that.

Most Indians who are middle class and above have questionable health/fitness standards. Every one sports a tummy and has high BP or Diabetes or something of that sort. In a way COVID was and very sadly enough, cleansing out the un fit....letting the unfit go is good for our ecology and environment. We humans are simply too many out there and that itself is the cause of all environmental issues. Too many of us are using up this planets resources.

Now you're making a very irrational and controversial statement sir. Say I have a tummy and my lifestyle has given me high bp and cholesterol but does than mean I deserve to die? No one can decide who gets to live and who doesn't sir. Don't forget the entire Marvel universe fought against Thanos for this exact same reason.

Also, I don't have a statistical data in hand at the moment but I'm guessing that half of the death during 2nd wave in India is because of unavailability of Oxygen or proper treatment. It has nothing to do with the shape of one's tummy.

Last mile can be taken by a electric rickshaw or a electric cab. We need to plan and develop infrastructure in that way.

But the fuel price has already increased. What shall we do from today till the day we plan and implement these.

Of course, when there is discussion regarding prices of any thing, politics will creep in. That is the whole reason for government and political system, so that we as citizens get to live work and conduct ourselves fruitfully in generation of wealth and resources of the nation, ECONOMY.

You still didn't answer my question though. What benefit will the government have if we start using less fuel and stay at home for the rest of our lives.

This is another cliché statement, used by people in gatherings with friends and relatives. Do you have any data to back up this claim that there is significant erosion of wealth.

Thankfully for this I don't need a statistical data because my bank statement is there to prove it. I don't intent to share it with you to prove my point though.

Peace out

[m8002?]

Originally Posted by norhog

This is another cliché statement, used by people in gatherings with friends and relatives. Do you have any data to back up this claim that there is significant erosion of wealth. If you give figures of stocks, please note they will definitely change as things normalize.

Do you even realize that you are contradicting yourself? The stock market is at an all time high. So those miniscule who invested there should be doing very well for themselves.

Here is one data that was discussed in our forum itself :
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...0.cms?from=mdr

There are many other reports out there for people to see and read if you want to.

Originally Posted by norhog

Most Indians who are middle class and above have questionable health/fitness standards. Every one sports a tummy and has high BP or Diabetes or something of that sort. In a way COVID was and very sadly enough, cleansing out the un fit....letting the unfit go is good for our ecology and environment. We humans are simply too many out there and that itself is the cause of all environmental issues. Too many of us are using up this planets resources.

So, the govts dont do enough on vaccines and oxygen so that the "unfit" die.
Next, they increase prices and inflation, so that the poor can starve and die. That also increases our per capita gdp.
An viola, we have a healthy and wealthy nation now!!!

I am hoping you dont plan to include people from other race, religion, region, caste, etc as "unfit" at a later point in time.

[anb]

Originally Posted by Axe77

I would add that even if there are cycling tracks, cyclists wont be better off because I don’t see driving habits in our country changing.

One of the reasons, cyclists are even more exposed than even a motorcycle is because while they cannot speed up as much as a motorcycle, the speed of a cycle on a semi empty road is such that almost every vehicle is overtaking him constantly thereby increasing the risk of someone hitting him.

I think bullock carts are a lot safer than cycles. Given technological developments and funding in research, some might be able to sell a few products of bull at a high rate in Amazon and there by generating revenue in near future . It’s going to be an era of bullock carts.

[PrasannaDhana]

I really don't think our fuel prices will ever stop going up, having witnessed even literate people justify it.

Common sense is seldom common, sadly.

Real Ache Din!

[AirbusCapt]

There is no need to worry. Amidst a sea of rational voices condemning the high fuel taxes, there will always be someone who finds logic even in the most bizzare!.
In the real world the government cannot afford to keep taxes high, start sporadic lockdowns, kill jobs and then expected to retain power. They are trying to sop in taxes in this lean period (before full opening up and post covid recovery), and I feel they will rationalize prices as soon as economic activity picks up.

[dvr08]

Originally Posted by norhog

Last mile can be taken by a electric rickshaw or a electric cab. We need to plan and develop infrastructure in that way.

Well, as per your initial post this is a contradiction. If govt is motivating to use public transport, infrastructure should be developed so that there is no need for cabs or personal vehicles within city at all. Do you think it is feasible to do so? It isn't. IMHO, no developed country has done this either.

We do not need an economist to calculate and say what the inflation rate is. As a common man, I can see it myself. How much did I spend to feed myself and family last week and how much did I spend this week? This simple comparison is more than enough.

Whom should we call unfit here? People who lose their peaceful livelihood due to this skyrocketing cost of living or the people who are responsible for this mess? It is terrible to call people who lose their life unfit and 'cleansing move'.

As few fellow members said, as long as we have blind supporters of so called leaders.. I don't want to finish this statement.

In my opinion, being a literate and being an educated individual are two very different things!

[Sebring]

I feel they will rationalize fuel prices in 2023, just before elections. Heaven and earth shall move. Good thing/fallout is Bicycles are 'Sold Out'

Originally Posted by AirbusCapt

I feel they will rationalize prices as soon as economic activity picks up.