[epiccross]

Originally Posted by Torq

Awaiting the allocation and the subsequent delivery of my Kia Sonet Diesel AT. Stumbled upon this thread during a cursory Google search on government banning/heavily regulating manufacture and sale of diesel mills. The SA mentioned briefly the same.

The long long wait times, coupled with upcoming RDE emission norms kicking in, in April 2023, made me realise, there's a real chance sub 1.5L diesels might be discontinued.

I would be forever robbed of owning the sweet 1.5L Crdi with TC AT.

A bit off topic - but have you cancelled your booking owing to this? I think they won't discontinue the cRDi diesels anytime soon. It's really the main USP of the Hyundai/Kia lineup right now (at least IMO).

[volkman10]

17 cars, SUVs being killed off by RDE norms in April 2023.

Upgrading to meet the Real Driving Emissions norms is proving expensive or unviable for the following vehicles.

It’s not just certain diesel models that have been affected, but carmakers will also be pulling the plug on several petrol-only models. This includes the likes of the Honda Jazz, Nissan Kicks, the fourth-generation City, the Innova Crysta petrol and even the likes of the Skoda Octavia and Superb sedans.

These particular models were either at the end of their lifecycle or were too slow-selling to justify the cost of upgrading to meet the RDE norms. Models such as the Kicks, KUV100 NXT, WR-V and Marazzo barely sold a few hundred units on a monthly basis, while others like the City Gen-4 and Jazz were well past their lifecycle and with no updates in the pipeline, are being discontinued for good. Lastly, for models such as the Alto 800 and Kwid 800, its about consolidating the line-up to the 1.0-litre engine rather than keeping a low-demand 800cc engine alive that's used by no other model in each of the carmaker's lineup.

Link

[ritedhawan]

Diesel fueled vehicles are going to be few and far between especially for new car buyers. The existential narrowing down of the price between petrol and diesel which has been going on for quite some time coupled with the future tightening of the norms, the latter in itself will be the final nail in the coffin for diesel powered cars.

The ever increasing fuel prices and the narrowing down of the price difference between petrol and diesel. This in itself would wean away prospective diesel car buyers to a hybrid petrol or for that matter to an electric car. The activation of the norms would actually deter car manufacturer's from offering diesel variants as it would not be worth the effort.

[kadanaJ]

Originally Posted by volkman10

17 cars, SUVs being killed off by RDE norms in April 2023.

Upgrading to meet the Real Driving Emissions norms is proving expensive or unviable for the following vehicles.

What exactly are RDE norms? Is it a change in how cars are being tested?

Can anyone share the difference between BS6 Phase 1 vs. BS6 Phase 2? Google has not been helpful on this.

[fhdowntheline]

I would like to learn from the experts, what's the possibility of the axe falling on cars with the 1.5 crde or say the 2.0 MJD engines? Would it be in the next 3-5 years? Do you foresee the Koreans promote their petrol variants more aggressively, thereby creating the grounds for the eventuality?

[kadanaJ]

Originally Posted by kadanaJ

What exactly are RDE norms? Is it a change in how cars are being tested?

Can anyone share the difference between BS6 Phase 1 vs. BS6 Phase 2? Google has not been helpful on this.

I did some research to answer my own question. Best I could find was this Moneycontrol article.

Set to be implemented in 2023, it (BS6-2) would require vehicles to meet emission norms in the real world, as opposed to a laboratory. For this, vehicles will need to have an on-board self-diagnostic device called OBD2, as standard. The device will constantly monitor the catalytic converter, oxygen sensors, etc. to keep a close watch on emissions. Should it exceed the parameters, it will indicate (through warning lights) that the vehicle be submitted for a service.

So it seems the main purpose is to prevent manufacturers from tuning engines in such a way that they are able to pass only lab tests, and then pollute heavily in real world driving conditions (think Volkswagen diesel engines). As far as I can make out, there are no changes in the level of pollution allowed from BS6 Phase 1. Only the testing method.

In addition to this, BS6 Stage II norms also require the carmakers to upgrade both hardware and software on the cars. In order to control the level of fuel burnt, the vehicles will carry programmed fuel injectors that control the timing and amount of fuel injected into the petrol engine. Even the semiconductors used by the vehicle will have to be upgraded to monitor throttle, crankshaft positions, air intake pressure, temperature of the engine and the contents of the emissions from the exhaust (particulate matter, nitrogen oxide, CO2, sulphur), etc.

Would doing the above really add a lot to the cost? The fact that a lot of manufacturers are discontinuing diesel engines leads me to believe that their engines were currently good enough to pass lab tests, but would require heavy and costly modification to be emission-compliant in the real world (or would fail real world tests).

Either ways, this seems like another blow to diesel-heads, and a huge benefit to manufacturers who have invested in petrol-hybrid technology.

[Mad Max]

I still don't understand the hate diesel engines get. For those who quote the narrowing prices between the two fuels, here's a google find

https://www.mycarhelpline.com/index....=808&Itemid=91

And no, didn't read every word of it. But yes, it's narrowing but it's also stable in it's trend. Goes up to about 11 Rs difference and then comes back to around 7 - 8 Rs difference.

My recent trip home - 700kms + 100kms of local driving - 42 liters of diesel in the Vento TDi. And do note that I have a heavy right foot. So, I travel farther with this fuel which could mean I need less of this fuel too to be produced. Petrol engines are helped by all sorts of hybrid technology to get there and let's not forget the glistening lithium and other rare metal elephants in the room. Maybe I should look into difference in maintenance cost of petrol vs. diesel engines of the same manufacturer but I would not expect it to be a stark difference.

So, instead of perfecting diesels and helping them burn more cleanly, are we not just throwing in alternate solutions which are definitely harmful for the environment? Or is it ok to do environmental damage as long as it's contained within an African nation or an South American country and it's not seen by us on a daily basis?

Really confused by this as I really want to be right in my love for diesels but I haven't heard any convincing arguments around petrol engines being better other than "diesels pollute too much". Which I think is solvable.

[kadanaJ]

Originally Posted by Mad Max

I still don't understand the hate diesel engines get.

Or is it ok to do environmental damage as long as it's contained within an African nation or an South American country and it's not seen by us on a daily basis?

Really confused by this as I really want to be right in my love for diesels but I haven't heard any convincing arguments around petrol engines being better other than "diesels pollute too much". Which I think is solvable.

I'm not exactly going to say it's okay to push pollution to other nations, but we certainly need to push it out of our urban areas.

During lockdown I started a practice of going for runs/jogs on the streets. It was great, and the air was surprisingly clean. Cue lockdown ending and car's started travelling on the roads again. There was an immediate and noticeable deterioration in air quality.

The worst offenders being poorly maintained old diesel vehicles belching out visibly grey smoke. They were generally commercial vehicles, but there were a few old Ventos, owned by folks who avoided the forced software update.

Due to the heavy particulate matter, and other harmful pollutants thrown out by diesel engines (in fact, any emissions by any ICE vehicle), there is no concept of going out for "fresh air". One cannot get "fresh air", unless you leave Mumbai city altogether.

The problem may be solvable, but as we are seeing with manufacturers struggling to meet BS6-2 norms, there is a heavy cost involved, making many small diesels unviable.

I for one am glad that stricter norms are coming in. Hybrids will reduce the amount of pollutants being spread around urban areas. EVs will push all that smog to power plants located outside living areas.

Hopefully urban air quality will improve.

[bijims]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

I would like to learn from the experts, what's the possibility of the axe falling on cars with the 1.5 crde or say the 2.0 MJD engines? Would it be in the next 3-5 years? Do you foresee the Koreans promote their petrol variants more aggressively, thereby creating the grounds for the eventuality?

The 1.5 CRDI VGT engine ain't going anywhere, and the 1.5 CRDI WGT is likely to be phased out, The 1.5 CRDi from Hyundai-Kia is one of the most widely used engines powering the Creta, Seltos, Sonet, Venue, Verna, Carens, Alcazar, etc, So it is in no way getting discontinued. The Venue uses the WGT and sales of the diesel Venue are not high either, so it's going to be discontinued, whereas around 50 percent of the sales of the Creta, Seltos, and Sonet come from the diesel powertrain and hence they will be upgraded to meet RDE norms.

As far as the 2.0 MJD from Fiat is concerned, At present, the engine powers the Jeep Compass, Tata Harrier, Tata Safari, MG Hector, etc The current 2 0 TD is a BS6 and is upgradeable to meet future regulations (including the RDE norms).

So at least these cars will be on the road well into 2030 in my opinion. Car manufacturers will likely have a huge chunk of EVs by then in all segments, which will likely reduce the demand for ICE-powered vehicles by then.

[Motorhead23]

Originally Posted by kadanaJ

What exactly are RDE norms? Is it a change in how cars are being tested?

Can anyone share the difference between BS6 Phase 1 vs. BS6 Phase 2? Google has not been helpful on this.

I would like to share the information i could gather in past few months. There are multiple things happening under the umbrella of regulations being implemented from 1st Apr'23.

1) RDE or Real Driving Emission - As the name suggest RDE refers to the emission testing being performed under real driving conditions. That is instead of testing the various parameters in a close chamber, the vehicle would be driven over a test track resembling to real road conditions, environment etc for a more accurate assessment. Poka yoke to VW Dieselgate.

2) CAFE (Stage 2): CAFE is for Corporate Average Fuel Economy or vehicle CO2 footprint per KM. If I remember correctly the current limit is 130 Gram of CO2/ Kilometer. It is calculated/aggregated at OEM Level and they are penalized by some caclculation on volumes sold. Going forward this limit is being further reduced.

Here is the interesting thing, since the final value is aggregated at an OEM Level, so it is not necessary for all models by an OEM to meet the criteria. So there will always be a mix of models or powertrain combinations which will qualify and others won't. Hence manufacturers will deliberately push a combination in the market such that the aggregated value remains under the limit decided.

For example , EVs have a huge advantage in this for obvious reasons, followed by Diesels/CNGs/Hybrids owing to higher mileage and hence higher the denominator lower the footprint/KM. This is a major factor that every manufacturer these days are trying to explore these combinations and stay in the limit. Also, there are some additional points being awarded for having some features like ISG , TPMS, Turbos etc.

Now the question is if Diesels are CAFE Supporter why OEMs are discontinuing them ��, here RDE is the culprit, In order to meet the RDE Norms a diesel powertrain needs significant upgrade in the emission regulation with addition of precious metals the cost goes up and it doesn't make sense to continue diesels where the pentration is low. In other words Diesels will continue for SUVs where they are major players.

And if I briefly talk about the major strategy of OEMs to adapt for these norms

Maruti - Strong push on their S-CNG portfolio and Hybrid Expansion.

Hyundai - Push for EV in Ioniq & to an extent Kona, followed by Diesels & CNGs

TATA - They have found gold with Nexon EV, no worry for next fiscal

Mahindra - Launch of XUV400 and strong Diesel Portfolio and what I know is their 2.2 Diesel is already very near to compliance

Toyota - Hybrids & CNGs

Honda - Hybrid expansion to lower variants , upcoming SUV and rumored 1.2 Turbo

[Torq]

Originally Posted by epiccross

A bit off topic - but have you cancelled your booking owing to this? I think they won't discontinue the cRDi diesels anytime soon. It's really the main USP of the Hyundai/Kia lineup right now (at least IMO).

With the impending price rise in Jan 23, and additional rise in April when phase 2 RDE norms kick in, I jumped on the chance of picking up Sonet GTX 1.5 Crdi AT last week of Dec. Delivery awaited for a better muhurat, but paid for and price locked.
It's one of the smoothest and most reliable combo of engine + gearbox.