[DRPSREDDY]

I believe TATA and Mahindra cannot run for long with the trio of Petrol-Diesel-Electric only combo.

If you look at the government projected figures of 30% electric by 2030, shows that Petrol will last for another 30 years but Diesel may die in the next 15 years, if government decides to implement stricter emissions laws.

If you look into the matter further, Petrol SUVs are gas guzzler and battery-electric cars may not penetrate that much as the fossil fuel cars. So, both Indian duos need to shift the Hybrid sooner than later as they will loose out to the Japanese as they are deep into hybrids. Hope they don't lose an early war.

[Mr.S]

I agree. Hybrids will be great during the 2025-2040/2045 odd phase (for the next 15-20 years). They will have a 15-20% share of Pie but more important in SUV Segment can go upto 30-40% & even higher in Bigger SUV. Won't be surprised if Toyota will be selling 70% Hybrids of a Innova or Fortuner.

It will require huge investment though. 1000s of Crores & counting & will require maintenance across the chain including training of folks. Not an easy issue. And you wonder how good these guys will be. But next 15-20 years should have a big space for Hybrids in the 20L+ Segment. For Mahindra it is more critical than Tata given their dependency on Diesel & Large SUVs.

Tata sells 50% of its cars using 2 models -> Nexon & Punch, both of whom will have a big electric presence if the battery prices come down in the next few years & both of them are largely city cars ! It is a missed opportunity though ! Don't know if these guys can invest along with the investment in Electric Cars !

[motographer]

Originally Posted by DRPSREDDY

If you look into the matter further, Petrol SUVs are gas guzzler and battery-electric cars may not penetrate that much as the fossil fuel cars. So, both Indian duos need to shift the Hybrid sooner than later as they will loose out to the Japanese as they are deep into hybrids. Hope they don't loose an early war.

No doubt that Hybrids are one of the most lucrative options right now, but I don't think Mahindra is having any plans of getting on the 'hybrid' boat as they have already displayed their prospective future EVs(Tata has explicitly said they have no plans for Hybrids). I also feel that even Honda which has one of the best hybrid systems will be bringing any more hybrids(besides City) to India. They have already displayed their intentions by not missing out on Elevate Hybrid and have said that instead they plan to bring Elevate EV within 3 years. Let's see what plans they have with the other 4 SUVs that they intend to bring by 2030.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by DRPSREDDY

I believe TATA and Mahindra cannot run for long with the trio of Petrol-Diesel-Electric only combo.

If you look at the government projected figures of 30% electric by 2030, shows that Petrol will last for another 30 years but Diesel may die in the next 15 years, if government decides to implement stricter emissions laws.

If you look into the matter further, Petrol SUVs are gas guzzler and battery-electric cars may not penetrate that much as the fossil fuel cars. So, both Indian duos need to shift the Hybrid sooner than later as they will loose out to the Japanese as they are deep into hybrids. Hope they don't loose an early war.

This argument completely discounts the fact that EVs continue to get better and by 2030 will provide much higher range, get cheaper and more importantly provide a far better driving experience. Just look at the growth of EVs in China and the US. Hybrids are simply out of the picture.

[Benoit]

Originally Posted by DRPSREDDY

I believe TATA and Mahindra cannot run for long with the trio of Petrol-Diesel-Electric only combo.

If you look into the matter further, Petrol SUVs are gas guzzler and battery-electric cars may not penetrate that much as the fossil fuel cars. So, both Indian duos need to shift the Hybrid sooner than later as they will loose out to the Japanese as they are deep into hybrids. Hope they don't loose an early war.

4 years ago, we wouldn't have known EV would grow to this level. The numbers speak for themselves. The growth is and will be exponential.

On the other hand, i don't feel so great about hybrids. The price difference do not justify the power or the fuel efficiency.

I think Mahindra is doing a great job. Explosive performance oriented ICE engines that will serve the present. A line up of EV for the future. On the other hand, Tata is doing okay with ICE engines. Their EV line up is very promising. I feel hybrids will not become mainstream, at least in the near future.

[DRPSREDDY]

Originally Posted by Benoit

4 years ago, we wouldn't have known EV would grow to this level. The numbers speak for themselves. The growth is and will be exponential.

On the other hand, i don't feel so great about hybrids. The price difference do not justify the power or the fuel efficiency.

I absolutely agree with you, but the government itself has targeted that EVs should be about 30% or more by 2030. I don't see the EVs reaching more than that by 2030. Today Hybrids have already surpassed the net EV sales. This also may be due to long range cars available only in the high price bracket.

People may feel that charging infrastructure insufficient or saturated in the long run. Even I am an early adopter of EV and a proud owner of Nexon EV MAX. I saw a video of Tesla charging station in California US is seeing a long line of waiting for a charging slot. Luckily, India promotes home charging that US doesn't. Also EV sops will start to decline increasing prices and will be taxed as much as Hybrids.

Also some states have started dolling out subsidies for Hybrids and today petrol or diesel variants and charged at 22% cess and hybrids at 15% that brings pricing disparity.

Also Hybrid tech is complicated and may be expensive to maintain in the long run. But India is a complex terrain and I feel that Hybrids will also remain a main stay due to lackluster charging infrastructure. TATA already has some Hybrid tech with some Land Rovers runing on hybrid that can trickle down, but Mahindra doesn't.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by DRPSREDDY

Today Hybrids have already surpassed the net EV sales.

Well Toyota/maruti do not give us a split to show how many pure hybrids they sell, if they did then this hybrids outselling EVs argument might cease. Just look at the disastrous sales of the City hybrid.

[DRPSREDDY]

Originally Posted by shortbread

Well Toyota/maruti do not give us a split to show how many pure hybrids they sell, if they did then this hybrids outselling EVs argument might cease. Just look at the disastrous sales of the City hybrid.

Here is our T-Bhp's thread that says that Hybrids have outsold EVs for this year. Reason been that there sare no midsized EVs from major manufacturers and consumers are not taking a risk plunging into them from smaller manufacturers like MG and BYD. TATA and Mahindra are into small car spectrum and Hyundai and KIA in the higher spectrum. May be when TATA, Mahindra, Maruti and Hyundai take a plunge into this area who have maximum spread and reach of dealerships and service centers will the sales pickup.


https://www.team-bhp.com/news/hybrid...rid-bet-paying

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by shortbread

Well Toyota/maruti do not give us a split to show how many pure hybrids they sell, if they did then this hybrids outselling EVs argument might cease. Just look at the disastrous sales of the City hybrid.

Not really a great example.

1. Honda itself is lazy in promoting the City Hybrid. Showing their stupid strategy in not giving the Elevate a hybrid option at launch or ever.

2. The sedan segment itself is a slow seller in face of the high riders.

3. The cheapest hybrid variant of the City is 3 lakhs expensive than the most expensive ICE version, whereas the cheapest hybrid Hyryder variant is 1 lakh cheaper than the most expensive ICE variant.

Hence, the lesser number of City hybrid sales, whereas 3 out of 5 Hyryders and Grand Vitaras in my city are Hybrids.

[DicKy]

I am not sure manufacturers show their monthly fuel mix sales split. Have seen only annually or quarterly figures, that too by third parties like Autopunditz, not sure where they get the data from. This is one thread which shows sales split of hybrids and normal models, though only last year's. https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...-analysis.html (Hybrid cars in India | Sales figures & analysis)

With waiting periods stretching to months and years, I don't think they are in any hurry to change public perception about hybrid's 'inefficiency'.

And since this is a Harrier thread, let me say that IMHO, Tata and Mahindra are jumping big time to BEVs not because of their long term approach or strategy, but because it is easier for them to do so than develop strong hybrids. Cheers.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by DRPSREDDY

I believe TATA and Mahindra cannot run for long with the trio of Petrol-Diesel-Electric only combo.

100% agreed. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Moving your posts to a new thread.

The petrol-engines of these large SUVs are royal guzzlers, giving 6 - 7 kmpl in the city. The market is signing off diesels which will only become more complex, cumbersome & expensive with time. The market is still a LONG way off mass adoption of EVs and there is still a massive market for ICE cars.

Hybrids are today's solution. Just see how happy Innova Hycross Hybrid owners are! 15 kmpl - wow.

[DRPSREDDY]

Originally Posted by DicKy

[i]Have seen only annually or quarterly figures, that too by third parties like Autopunditz, not sure where they get the data from. This is one thread which shows sales split of hybrids and normal models, though only last year's. https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...-analysis.html (Hybrid cars in India | Sales figures & analysis)

Excellent compiling of data showing the sale of Hybrids. Unfortunately thread dropped dead after the initial post. Seems then people were not interested but brand, FE and pricing has kept sales ticking.

Originally Posted by GTO

100% agreed. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Moving your posts to a new thread.

The petrol-engines of these large SUVs are royal guzzlers, giving 6 - 7 kmpl in the city.
Hybrids are today's solution. Just see how happy Innova Hycross Hybrid owners are! 15 kmpl - wow.

Absolutely! But not only petrol cars even diesels are guzzlers with some of my friends owning Mahindra vehicles, esp. Thar returns just 7-8 KMPL both in manual and Automatic variants Scorpio and XUV700 too are not so efficient. (Mahindras were never fuel efficient)That issue was hanging around in the back of my mind. But the problem with Hybrids is they don't give you the joy of driving and is not acceptable to an enthusiast.
Also the last nail in the coffin is the taxes. Some tax rebates and cess makes Hybrids cheaper.

Hope TATA and Mahindra are listening.

[ergon_9700]

I actually with DRPSREDDY. Diesels won't last long. Max 20 years in my opinion. And for Petrol max 35 years.

Bigger engines especially turbo petrols are quite the guzzlers. XUV700 petrol is quite the guzzler especially the automatic version. Tuning can help but only to an extent. Mild hybrids can help to adding around 15% more economy.

Fuel economy as we know depends in several factors like engine efficiency, power loss, vehicle weight etc.


Hybrids even though they add weight, do use battery power to reduce strain on engine. Hence giving more economy. EV mode in stop go traffic. Also for people with long distance driving, hybrids are a natural replacement for those with diesel cars. Praying that the finance Ministry reduce Taxes on Hybrid cars.


But then we must note advances in EV battery tech. Toyota recently claimed a battery advancement that can give around 1000km with a single charge. But infra plays a big role even if you have high range.

[dazdandconfuzd]

For the longest time, I'd been of the opinion that EVs were the way to go, and that hybrids wouldn't work in India due to the added complexity and cost. But with the launch of cars like the City Hybrid and the Suzuki-Toyota twins, my opinion slowly started shifting.

The high initial cost of EV's made it feasible only for those with a very high running. Everyone else had to either get one of the hybrids (GV/Hyrider, City Hybrid etc.) or a regular ICE vehicle.

These hybrids give amazing efficiency figures compared to ICE vehicles but still can't match those of EVs. On the other hand, EVs also come with their fare share of disadvantages. They tend to get confined to the city as highway running significantly reduces the range. And add to that all the shortcomings of EV charging networks .

Basically, EVs are more efficient in the city and ICE vehicles are more efficient at highway speeds.



It was with the launch of the Prius Prime in the US that convinced me that PHEVs are the perfect mix of both EV and ICE technology. And yes, I am aware PHEV's have existed for a long time.
This car has an electric only range of about 64km which makes it basically an EV for your office and city runs. And when you go on the highway, it just switches to hybrid or even full ICE mode. You get the advantage of having and EV in the city, and when you get on the highway, you cruise like an ICE. You get the best of both worlds. This thing even has a solar panel on the roof which charges the battery, making it possible to recover the charge if you live close enough to your workplace .

Yes, to get such an EV-mode range will require a pretty large battery, but not as large as a regular EV. I'm estimating this will (on average) cost somewhere in between that of a regular hybrid and an EV in the same ballpark, which is a small price to pay for the best of both worlds.

[antz.bin]

I doubt Tata and Mahindra will venture into the Hybrids. Hybrids have way too much equipment (i.e. cost) and very little govt support to rationalise the pricing.

Govt in all probability will not increase GST on EVs too much since EVs directly promote reduction in requirement of imported crude and promote domestic electricity generation. Hybrids don't do either of that.

Already we have price parity with EVs w.r.t. Diesels and Hybrids. Creta Diesel AT, Grand Vitara Hybrid and XUV400 are priced the same, have the same interior and boot space. They also have roughly the same features (for the price). In fact the GV Hybrid actually costs substantially more than the XUV.

As of now, the XUV400 is the only EV which is >4m and also made in India. All Tata EVs are <4m. Once these companies grow their EV portfolios in the >4m segment, there is very little the Hybrids can do to compete. Larger cars also mean larger batteries installed which should alleviate some of the highway range concerns.

Its really a pity that sedans are on their way out. Sedans make ideal EVs with their long lengths, relatively low weight(vs SUVs) and lower drag coefficients making them more efficient overall.