[buzzy_boy]

As far as I can tell, the case in point is not about airbag deployment . Had that been the case, the plaintiff would've been instructed to move the consumer forum.


Rather, the case seems to be about misleading claims about the safety of the vehicle by M&M's representatives.

Here's a link where Mr. Veluchamy speaks about the safety of XUV700 at 200 KMPH. On the face of it, these seem to be unqualified claims.

So, there might be a prima facie case if such statements were made about the Scorpio as well. IMHO, the affected party is well within their right to lodge a complaint.

[NomadSK]

Sad to know that a life was lost in an accident. However, I won’t be able to comment on this particular accident and whether there were airbags present in an SUV or not and why they weren’t deployed in the accident as it depends on multiple factors for the airbags to inflate during the incident. Let the investigation and law takes its due "correct" course and gets to a conclusive end. That's the Least tax payers should expect.

Let me pen down my own story of a high speed (within legal limits) multiple times roll over.

Preface - It was dark, I was on a cruise control, set the cruise limits as per the road requirement and driving on the highway in the fast lane. Around 400Kms of straight road. The highways here are so straight, designed properly to the books/standards and butter smooth, that If you don’t put a cruise control, you will tend to over speed, as the perception of the speed diminishes with no relative objects to refer to and will gather too many speed violations. Generally, we perceive the exact speed of vehicle mainly through looking at the speedometer, but on long drives and with sparse traffic, doing so off and on causes the eyes to turn away from the road, which is a dangerous situation. Also, On my left there was a paved shoulder space, which is generally sufficient for one vehicle to overtake but legally that space is not for overtaking and is only for emergency vehicles to pass/move. But impatient drivers use this space for overtaking in general. The highway was 4 lane each side and there was a prestressed steel wire fence 5-6 feet high in-between the lanes, just to arrest the rouge vehicles crossing over into the oncoming traffic. The distance between the 2 lanes was probably 14-15 meters and these are access controlled highways with fencing in between and on the sides.

Scenario - I'm belted inside my SUV and I can see a sedan at some extreme speed on the shoulder lane, about to overtake my vehicle and my eyes were glued on this car in my left OVRM and slowly I just started to move to the center lane to give him safe space to overtake while glancing in the right OVRM. And while he was in the process of overtaking me, he hit me just in front of the rear left wheel (I don't know why though at that time). My car went out of control into a spin, I lost the control on the steering and kind of oversteering phenomenon (lost my senses at this moment, went blank). I went into a rollover, multiple times. Crossed over the median steel wire fence without even damaging it and I was on the other side of the shoulder lane of the oncoming traffic. I still don’t understand how that fence doesn’t stopped me going to the other opposite side lane, Was the roll over that high that it crossed the fence over it. Still don’t know. Luckily no traffic to deal with there in the opposite lane. And airbags weren’t deployed (Japanese Car), even though the tipping point for the rollover was right hand side front near the headlights. I came out of the car safely with spatial disorientation and confused thoughts, since I was supposed to be in another lane.

In the picture, the white sedan with headlights on, was the one who hit me.

Reason for telling my story is,
-Airbags don’t get deployed in all scenarios/conditions for which it’s not engineered.
-Seat belts keep you safe and sound in most scenarios. 4/4 in my case.
-Speed perception is affected by visual cues of the relative objects. That’s why, speeding at night makes it more dangerous.
-Accidents are rarely the fault of a single person. Responsibility is collectively spread amongst many people/systems.
-I am not suggesting that the immediate causes of an accident are any less important than the underlying causes. The other driver was underage and high on substance.
-Cruise control avoids you from overspeeding, specially on such long straight monotonous highways.
-And also, Rollover doesn’t always mean that the car is being driven out of the safe limits. Sometimes like this you are at the receiving end for no fault of yours. Sh*t Happens on roads.

Be safe Guys.

I don't know if this fits here or in Accident thread. Mods, Pls free to reloacte it, if deemed so.

[EeshanChatterje]

My take on the entire airbag situation is that that the current technology is at a saturation point. 99% of all airbags in existence today work on pretty similar technology, and the software / hardware combination is most often *NOT* made by the car manufacturer but by the vendor that provides it.

There are ~ 10 large airbag inflator manufacturers - many Indian car manufacturers use Autoliv or Bosch, which have large manufacturing facilities in India.

Autoliv is also used by pretty much every major manufacturer - see here https://www.autoliv.com/sites/defaul...%20Markets.pdf

Bosch is also used by pretty much every manufacturer, though I couldn't find a public report to support this.

In this case, Mahindra has very little control on how the airbags will perform, just the placement of the sensors based on the shape of the vehicle is what they'll have design input on.

For most SUVs and high ground clearance vehicles, hitting a low divider isn't a situation where airbags should always be deployed, as the chance of jumping on to oncoming traffic is high and airbag deployment takes away any chance the driver has of bringing the vehicle to a safe stop avoiding a head on collision.

I'm not sure if the speed of the vehicle was a factor, but my understanding is that for the roof to collapse and cause grievous injury - the force needs to be tremendous - only possible at very high speeds. Was the driver perhaps driving well over the limit?

Another thing to note is the reliance of consumers on NCAP, primarily on GNCAP. The fact is that most of the NCAP tests are primarily aligned to frontal and side crashes - roof integrity isn't a primary test for a star rating. This is perhaps not well known, but for a customer who was *concerned* about safety of a vehicle they were buying, this info is a quick google away. Or a quick T-bhp thread away. https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/road-...explained.html (Global NCAP crash tests | Broken down & explained)

Now if the car was *missing* airbags where they should have been, of course the manufacturer should be held liable. But airbags not inflating on a specific crash is a much more complex function of probability of survival and vehicle control.

As a sidenote, The next evolution of airbag technology is possible with a fully connected car that in turn is only possible when there is a high level of vertical integration within the manufacturing ecosystem. This is diametrically opposite to where car manufacturing is today, where *manufacturers* are really just assemblers, and almost every part is sourced from suppliers (often 5-6 levels of suppliers).

An example is what Tesla is doing with safety, including airbag deployment - being able to get deep detailed crash data from every crash a tesla is in allows them to build predictive models to deploy belt pre-tentioners and airbags at the right time and for the right crashes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W3hsHGjm_Y

Litigators gonna litigate, but the fact remains that

[Amrit@wheels]

This is not a rare case for Mahindra, this issue has been prevalent for years now. There have been numerous instances where even their highly-rated safe vehicles fail to deploy the airbags in many cases. Our neighbor's XUV500 was hit by a Municipal truck on the front right of the bonnet, crushing the bonnet and the right wheel, and no airbag was deployed. This issue needs to be seriously addressed, people are literally losing lives due to it.

[dsr001]

Can I say this.. airbag deployment is like a punch to the face followed by disorientation and low visibility for some time, hence would be deployed only when it is sure to help.

Can we compare it to an ejection seat for a fighter plane?

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by EeshanChatterje

As a sidenote, The next evolution of airbag technology is possible with a fully connected car that in turn is only possible when there is a high level of vertical integration within the manufacturing ecosystem. This is diametrically opposite to where car manufacturing is today, where *manufacturers* are really just assemblers, and almost every part is sourced from suppliers (often 5-6 levels of suppliers).

I don’t think so. Look at commercial and even military aviation. Any plane commercial and or military is a set of endless subassemblies. I can’t think of any aircraft where the cockpit and or any electronic system is designed and manufactured by the actual aircraft manufacturer. A modern cockpit has dozens and dozens different system from different suppliers. Who all rely on various suppliers too.

Vertical integration, from a technical point of view is about setting requirements on suppliers and developing standards, such as interfaces and so on.

Car manufacturers do that today with companies such as Bosch, Denzo and others already.

Originally Posted by dsr001

.

Can we compare it to an ejection seat for a fighter plane?

Well to some extend but there are some very noticeable differences of course. Airbags are triggered by various sensor and some logic that ensures it fires under specific conditions

Ejection seat are always triggered by the pilot. It is a conscious decision and it requires the pilot to grab a handle and pull hard.

Pilots have been known to choose not to eject and try and manoeuvre their malfunctioning plane away from crowds or build up areas and have died subsequently.

Also the impact of an actual ejection from a plane is of a different order of magnitude than an airbag. Pilots measure several centimeters shorter after an ejection due to compression of their spine.
Jeroen

[Amrit@wheels]

Originally Posted by Amrit@wheels

This is not a rare case for Mahindra, this issue has been prevalent for years now. There have been numerous instances where even their highly-rated safe vehicles fail to deploy the airbags in many cases. Our neighbor's XUV500 was hit by a Municipal truck on the front right of the bonnet, crushing the bonnet and the right wheel, and no airbag was deployed. This issue needs to be seriously addressed, people are literally losing lives due to it.

Adding further to it, this is not limited to just Mahindra, I have also experienced this in Toyota cars as well. Our 2009 Fortuner was front-ended by a reversing dumper and no airbags were deployed. A Crysta crashed into a trolley on Pilibhit-Bareilly highway and no airbags were deployed. This is more down to the quality of the vehicles sold in our country.

[Doonite]

Originally Posted by EeshanChatterje

My take on the entire airbag situation is that that the current technology is at a saturation point. 99% of all airbags in existence today work on pretty similar technology, and the software / hardware combination is most often *NOT* made by the car manufacturer but by the vendor that provides it.

There are ~ 10 large airbag inflator manufacturers - many Indian car manufacturers use Autoliv or Bosch, which have large manufacturing facilities in India.

In this case, Mahindra has very little control on how the airbags will perform, just the placement of the sensors based on the shape of the vehicle is what they'll have design input on.

I'll risk the infraction but this reads like a load of nonsense to absolve blame on the part of Mahindra.

Isn't it the job of manufacturer to vet their vendors and perform analysis if such a critical component in a vehicle will perform when needed? Forget critical components, isn't every component that's procured from vendors supposed to pass quality checks before final input?

Mahindra has very much control over how they accommodate the sensors in their vehicles, so that they perform their task when needed i.e airbags deploy when required. I genuinely fail to understand how a seasoned giant like Mahindra has no control over airbag deployment in their vehicles after all the resources at their disposal and stimulations they must've ran, critical analysis performed etc.

If a consumer is being hit with infinite number of scenarios WHY airbags didn't deploy and WHEN they will actually deploy after an accident, then I would like to see a big visible disclaimer on the brochure itself informing the buyer of the scenarios where a life saving feature will work / will not work. This will allow the buyers to make an informed decision.

Personally speaking, I would love to hear an SA explain to me "sarrrrr you have to hit the divider from this definite angle or the airbags won't deploy".

[Amrit@wheels]

Originally Posted by buzzy_boy

As far as I can tell, the case in point is not about airbag deployment . Had that been the case, the plaintiff would've been instructed to move the consumer forum.


Rather, the case seems to be about misleading claims about the safety of the vehicle by M&M's representatives.

Here's a link where Mr. Veluchamy speaks about the safety of XUV700 at 200 KMPH. On the face of it, these seem to be unqualified claims.

So, there might be a prima facie case if such statements were made about the Scorpio as well. IMHO, the affected party is well within their right to lodge a complaint.

To be honest, XUV700 has proven to be a very safe vehicle and saved the occupants in numerous accidents. Scorpio Classic, on the other hand, has never been touted as a super safe vehicle. From personal experience, it's a very unsafe vehicle. Still, the provided safety measures should work when required.

[harikr]

Hello all,
My heart goes out to the parent. Loosing your child is one of the biggest pain anyone can go through. May he get closure soon.

I have worked on airbag validations at few OEMs during the initial phase of my career. A front airbag is designed to be deployed only if it is a direct impact which causes an impact load along the longitudinal axis of the vehicle. Only such an impact can be absorbed by the frontal airbags. As few mentioned here already, airbag deployment is not a pleasant experience. You will not even see the airbag deploying. You can only see the smoke, hear the sound and then see the deflated airbag hanging in front of you. It fires with such immense force that an unsecured passenger sitting in its front can get killed due to the opening force of the airbag. So the deployment is avoided unless it is helpful to a small extend.

And underbody impact is one thing that is specifically calibrated as a no deployment event during the airbag programming. I haven’t seen the accident mentioned here, but normal Indian dividers are so small that it impacts the underbody normally. So airbag deployment may not happen. Also if the impact is on one side and the vehicle rolls over, side / curtain airbag should deploy (if equipped). Front airbags don’t have a role here.

Now from what I understood, the issue that the parent raised is not just about airbag, but on the promise of a safe vehicle. Mahindra claims so much on the safety of their cars. So that needs to be explored in detail by the authorities and even Mahindra themselves. After all they are trying to bring safer cars.

However we should understand that no car is safe, every vehicle has its limits.

Just would like to add one more point to this discussion . Yes airbags are not manufactured by OEM, but the vehicles are extensively tested on all possible use cases with the production intended airbags and sensors to collect data and calibrate the deployment. There are specific abuse tests to simulate cases where airbag is not to be deployed. It is not just a plug and play device like your headlamp or audio system. After so much testing calibration retesting and recalibration are these vehicles launched. However all use cases cannot be recreated in a testing environment . With advanced simulation tools, the calibrations are much better these days. Still there are rooms for error. So my advice will be to err on the side of caution and always understand that these machines and systems have limits.

[i10_sanjay]

Originally Posted by ritedhawan

I have been in an accident in which one of the front air bags got deployed.
The left airbag deployed instantly ,and deflated in 2 seconds, the deployment sound was like a mild bursting of a cracker, the deflatation lead to a small white mist, making it difficult for breath.

Do I blame the car manufacturer for not deploying the driver side airbag? Absolutely NOT, as per the sequence of events , there was no need for driver side airbag deployment. Did I blame myself for the turn of events? Absolutely YES, a lesson learnt well that day and stays with me.

Sorry for asking such a noob question. If hitting the front passenger side of the car only triggers the passenger airbag, why do both airbags deploy in the front offset collision test by crash test agencies? Ideally, even in case where only passenger side collision happen, the force will be sufficient to throw the driver to the front thereby crashing into the steering wheel which ultimately causes fatal outcomes? Someone please enlighten me

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Reinhard

As for the available photos of the accident available online (assuming that they are of the actual car involved in the accident) - the car seems to be heavily modified. XL size aftermarket wheels, replaced horns n electrical accessories seem to be evident in those images. Shoddy work in all of these - can easily result in airbag malfunction - and even deactivation due to human error in reconnecting it while reinstalling the steering wheel after leather wrap (also evident in photos) etc.

Unpopular opinion ahead.

Thank you @Reinhard. This statement by @Reinhard and the news item that the car was being driven in a fog says it all. The disconnection of the airbag circuits could easily have occurred during these FNG modifications. Who knows the friendly ignorant FNG guy might have removed the airbags to lend substance to the father's claim of there being no airbags.

These days there is way too much being relied upon on safety devices in a car to keep us safe. I had been driving for 19 or 20 years before the seat belt rule first arrived in India. How did we drive safely without a single device in ancient designs like the Padmini or Ambassador? We did it by first not over speeding and second by driving thoughtfully with our egos tucked away out of sight. No number of devices can cater to every sort of crash - here M&M have erred by over advertising. You can't make a car crash proof anymore than you can make a ship unsinkable. Driving safely is 75% of the journey of staying safe while driving. Wearing seatbelts is 24% of the game of staying safe. All other devices including airbags is only 1% of the story. That 1% - GNCAP, airbags, et al - has been overblown in young minds as the answer for all accidents.

My sympathy for the grieving father. But toppling over and rolling several times after hitting a divider indicates driving a little too fast in the fog. A modified car also indicates an overdose of machismo at work here. As this is a thread on the airbags not deploying I'm not wading into the DUI factor.

Maybe M&M is at fault for the airbags not deploying. Hang them. But where is our (the deceased driver's) agency of driving within the safety envelope of the vehicle?

[Kln]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Unpopular opinion ahead.

Thank you @Reinhard. This statement by @Reinhard and the news item that the car was being driven in a fog says it all. The disconnection of the airbag circuits could easily have occurred during these FNG modifications. Who knows the friendly ignorant FNG guy might have removed the airbags to lend substance to the father's claim of there being no airbags.



Maybe M&M is at fault for the airbags not deploying. Hang them. But where is our (the deceased driver's) agency of driving within the safety envelope of the vehicle?

Do you have any links or pics to show how the car had been modified, or do you have any links to show if there was heavy fog? I'm unable to find any.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Kln

Do you have any links or pics to show how the car had been modified, or do you have any links to show if there was heavy fog? I'm unable to find any.

All there in this thread itself. Please peruse the news articles

[ritedhawan]

Originally Posted by i10_sanjay

Sorry for asking such a noob question. If hitting the front passenger side of the car only triggers the passenger airbag, why do both airbags deploy in the front offset collision test by crash test agencies? Ideally, even in case where only passenger side collision happen, the force will be sufficient to throw the driver to the front thereby crashing into the steering wheel which ultimately causes fatal outcomes? Someone please enlighten me

Review my response again, and you will see that prior to the collision, brake was pressed and this did its bid to slow down, albeit not enough time to stop the vehicle, coupled with a full right on the steering wheel. This would bring the left bumper in full contact and not the right, that’s why the crumpling began from left of the middle bumper going up to the radiator and twisted hood, obviously the left air bag would engage not right airbag. Had there been no brake or for that matter no full right of the steering wheel, then the whole of the front bumper comes in contact with the rear end of the Tata 407, both front airbags would then engage.