[smoes]

TATA made a bet on EVs and invested time, effort and capital to bringing EVs to the Indian market. A critial reason why this bet made sense was the tax benefits buyers got from purchasing EVs over ICEs.

TATA can't have a "noble" intention and say, "Oh, hybrids are better than ICEs when it comes to emmisions, so let's support it for the larger good". TATA is a public company that has a responsibility towards their shareholders first and foremost. And they have to show profits. It's a reality that they don't have hybrids in their portfolio and they need to protect their interests. From that point of view it's totally justified that they lobby for their own interests. Also, if we let Maruti go unchecked, we'll end up with 50KMPL tin cans that are years behind the rest of the world. So this is all for the better, in my opinion.

[greenhorn]

Tata vs hybrid is essentially just one front of the historic Tata vs Maruti fight that has been going on since the dawn of the millennium, ever since tata went into passenger cars. Hybrid vs Ice is another one started by legacy automakers such as toyota who have significant investments in ICE. Personally i feel EV are a fad, and Hybrids, heck, pure ICE with carbon neutral fuels can be the way forward. Lobbying is basically each company trying to look out for its business interests, and in my opinion, corporate free speech. Their point of view may be wrong, but they have the right to stand by it and do everything in their power to defend their stand.

[heydj]

I am open to anyone lobbying provided government knows what it is doing and has both present and future considerations in mind. I find our government policy making to be quite ineffective and lopsided as if it's made by someone without any intellect.

Now government on their own should have thought of having different taxation for hybrid but No it didn't even strike them instead all in for EV without infrastructure in place. Moreover why did the government forget in India EV is powered mainly by electricity from coal and EV battery parts are from China. So essentially we are increasing our dependency on Coal & China. How is that for ineffective government.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

Personally i feel EV are a fad, and Hybrids, heck, pure ICE with carbon neutral fuels can be the way forward.

What are these carbon neutral fuels?

Originally Posted by heydj

No it didn't even strike them instead all in for EV without infrastructure in place. Moreover why did the government forget in India EV is powered mainly by electricity from coal and EV battery parts are from China. So essentially we are increasing our dependency on Coal & China. How is that for ineffective government.

Why would anyone build infrastructure without the cars, the govt has to subsidize to promote more EVs, more EVs on road means more infrastructure. Petrol refuelling infra is not developed like today in 1920.

Here is the electricity pathway:

EVs: Generate Electricity(from coal, renewables, nuclear) --> Transmission through Grid --> Charge EVs

ICE: Generate Electricity (from coal, renewables, nuclear) --> Transmission through Grid --> Use Electricity to Pump crude from underground --> Use lots and lots of electricity to refine oil --> use lots of electricity to pump oil through pipes --> fill the car tank.

Electricity used by ICE infra >= Electricity used by EVs directly.

We are already getting battery factories in India, the dependence on China will reduce slowly, we will be become more dependent on China if we oppose EVs today.

[electric_eel]

A hybrid car at the end of it is just an ICE car with a mini Electric drive train added to it. Remember we had a "Harvard" study that showed BEVs alone will emit enough pollution that one would need to drive 1/3 the distance to moon to break even with ICE cars. How can ICE+BEV = Hybrid be emitting less pollution ? Where did that enormous emission from Li-mining hide when they got into the batteries of a Hybrid car ? Or may be the Li -batteries of BEVs are Chinese but that of Hybrid comes directly from heaven.

And get over it. There is no net-zero fuel. "Green" hydrogen, ethanol, bio-diesel etc are often environmentally worse than the petrol, Diesel. They are what Pauli would call "Not even wrong" solution to emission control. Any one who thinks otherwise needs to do their homework properly.

So I would say Hybrids should be taxed exactly like a ICE car (because there is an ICE car inside the sheep skin). Invest the extra money in improving public transport (electric), grid and finally fast charging network. Note that massively electrification of all energy needs (not just mobility) is the first step to solve the climate crisis.

[greenhorn]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

What are these carbon neutral fuels?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-neutral_fuel

[07CR]

A case of sour grapes IMO. They lack sophistication to develop even niggle free reliable ICE cars and making hybrid cars is a distant dream. Even with the electrics I have been reading frequent negative reports of Tata EVs.

Tata rather increase their standard rather than focus on pulling others down.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-neutral_fuel

Which one do you prefer, driving EVs at 1.5₹/km or driving ICE at 20-30₹/km with the so called carbon neutral fuels which are not carbon neutral since they need lots of electricity and land use to process them.

The less we talk about synthetic fuels the better. Some of the carbon neutral fuels will be used by hard to electrify sectors like aviation. The only smart solution which is cheap and has less emissions than the so called carbon neutral fuels is using electricity directly to charge an EV.

Today EV worldwide sales is 20%, no fad can reach that level of market penetration, I believe.

[SAE40 in veins]

Lobbying is not just a medicine for missing some good opportunities in the past. Tatas had all the time and money at some point to even beat Maruti but then, the decision makers in the company thought differently.

As we speak, Tata Motors still does not have a decent 4 cylinder All Aluminium Petrol engine in its portfolio while the rest of the market had it at least two decades back. Tatas problems stems from the bare fact that it has only certain powertrains and can offer only products which fit in there. The move to EVs is more of a compulsion considering the pathetic state of it's ICE portfolio. The 2 valve, cast iron block Revotron which debuted with the Tata Zest is long dead. The only surviving block is the 1.2 liter 3 cylinder block with 2 configurations, the NA(as in the Tiago, Punch and Altroz) and the Turbo (as in the Nexon and Altroz turbo).

TML kept designing vehicles without having an independent and parallel powertrain program like the Mahindras. Excellent vehicles have been let down by sloppy engines, the Altroz being a good example.

The one good engine, the 2.2 liter Diesel is now doing duty only in the Xenon Pick up and Winger and not in the Safari or the Harrier while Mahindras did wonders with the same 2179 cc block co developed with AVL. Mahindras even developed a transverse configuration of the 2.2 engine along with matching transaxles, which the world is now praising in the form of the XUV 700 powertrain. Tatas happily went shopping to FIAT for the 2 liter diesel.

OK fair enough, so why don't they enter segments where the existing powertrains can work? say a 7 seater MUV like the Ertiga or even a timely replacement of the Tiago which can carry on the powertrain and underpinnings?

from the Indica in 1998, It took more than 20 years for this great company to realize that a new gen 4 cylinder petrol engine is needed in the portfolio (what were the seniors and strategists smoking is what i wonder).

Yes, the purchase of the Sanand plant was a masterstroke while Ford exited the Indian market. So what prevented the Tatas from licence manufacturing the 'Ecoboost' engines from Ford when there are absolutely no competing products from Ford ? Refused by Ford or Tata strategists haven't thought of it as yet ? god only knows.

So this futuristic 'EV' push what we see is more of a 'Majboori' rather than a strategy as is clear. The endless opportunities wasted in developing new gen powertrains cannot be compensated by lobbying against the Hybrids which are the definitive stepping stones to EV. Effective lobbying by Tatas had practically killed the Bajaj Qute once but then the Nano too died soon after.

As it stands, it is not too late yet. TML can still develop decent powertrains (or at least buy from Ford or GM) and enter more segments where it is not present. Once that is done, the need for lobbying will automatically come down.

[greenhorn]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

Which one do you prefer, ...

Today EV worldwide sales is 20%, no fad can reach that level of market penetration, I believe.

Don't want to take this thread offtopic

plenty of discussion going on here
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...re-cars-2.html (EVs, Hybrids, Synthetic Fuel: What do you think is going to be the future of cars?)

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

Today EV worldwide sales is 20%, no fad can reach that level of market penetration, I believe.

Everyone knows it's a reality now and the EV market share keeps increasing year on year globally despite the pro IC media campaigns. No one knows this better than Toyota.

The problem the Japanese giant faces is that it's waay behind the EV race in all the major developed markets, including US, China, Europe, UK etc.... the Toyota EV has the cheapest lease deals in the UK but people keep ignoring the bz4x and opt for Tesla or the cheaper Chinese cars. The fact that the Tesla model Y outsells all the Corolla iterations combined despite being almost twice the price must be an eye opener.

Toyota keeps complaining how countries are unfairly supporting their own domestic companies in the US, China, Europe etc.... while completely ignoring the massive support Japanese financial system gives Toyota helping them load up with massive amounts of debt.

So the last remaining bastion to ply their trade is the Asian and African markets, especially India one of the world's largest car markets.

No one is stopping Toyota from making a market leading EV that's competitively priced and launching it in India, like yesterday. The only ones stopping them are themselves. I know they have a lot of hopes pinned on the Maruti EV and it's sticker job Toyota derivative. But I have a strong feeling they're going to be in for a shock just like they found out after their pure EV bz4x flopped.

[Joe367]

The real question to be asked is whether hybrid cars like the Innova Hycross produces less emissions compared to all the ICE cars? If there are ICE cars that produce less emissions than a hybrid Hycross should they also be eligible for tax cuts?

[buzzy_boy]

In general, taxes on all cars need to be reduced. Our taxation policy is still stuck with the socialist mindset that cars are luxury goods.

Currently, net taxation for even commuter cars is ~50% in some states. This has to be brought down to 30% to ease the taxation burden on the common person.

[Himanshu809]

Originally Posted by DicKy

No.

This looks just like how Maruti may lobby against crash tests or BNCAP because they won't be able to meet them.

But on the contrary, there was no talk of BNCAP being voluntary initially but when it was launched, it was announced that it’s voluntary. Which is like making a rule/regulation as a “suggestive measure”, pirate style.

Maruti being the majority market player with half the sales cornered stands to lose the most from compulsory BNCAP tests as other than GV & Brezza (and Invicto), all of their product range will be ineligible to be sold in the market thereby effectively neutering them to the point of almost non existence. I’m not saying all other products from other manufacturers would’ve passed with flying colours but there’s a reason it was lobbied hard through SIAM & Maruti and Hyundai being the two major players who control the majority of the market (and stood to lose the most) must’ve led these lobbying efforts (which were successful by the looks of it).

If companies can lobby for protecting their outdated products at the potential cost of human lives, what’s wrong in lobbying against an outdated technology which was launched in India at least 7 years too late and even till now unavailable in entry level mass market products?

Maruti has nothing in their R&D department except value/cost engineering, that’s why they partnered up with Toyota to be future ready. On their own they have absolutely no chances of survival in the future market. Hybrids are not completely useless in Indian use case scenario, but they are nothing but a stop gap till EV market and infrastructure is maturing so it’s a short sighted short term measure to give hybrids any kind of tax benefits or subsidy. And even if they should be given any subsidy it can’t be anything equal or even close to EVs. EVs are far from perfect but hybrids only solve problems on user end not on a macro scale. Automobiles are an easy target for global warming and environmental damage, there are plenty of other major factors in play.

[fiat_tarun]

Although I feel we need to incentive Hybrids a little and not treat them the same as ICE, Tata is fully justified in lobbying against it.

This is a major part of every business where one tries to influence policy to benefit yourself. Who do you think is behind all the articles comparing EV vs Hybrid sales, etc., showing Hybrids as the better alternative ??

The biggest problem with our policies is that it is very short term and can change very fast disrupting investment and business plans. If at the beginning itself, GOI had realised in India, only EV will take a loonnnnng time, they could have had graded benefits - GST on EVs at 5%, full Hybrid at 15-20%, ICE at 28% + Cess, etc. so OEMs also decide where to put the money when.

If oil imports and CO2 is the priority, Hybrids definitely contribute more than an ICE today and is a good case in India as the car works for all use cases (city, highway...)