[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by OffRoadFun

Misleading spin by manufacturer(s).
There is NO company in India which makes OLED displays. It is just still primarily assembly which happens in India.

What about IPS LCD display? It probably has 70% to 80% marketshare in India (in terms of number of units, not value). Google 'Samsung Display Noida'.

What is the reason for distrust in numbers provided by -

- Manufacturers
- Govt of India
- Third party research firms (Counterpoint Research, in this case)

Saying "India is just assembling smarphones using philips screwdriver & fevikwik" is humorous, but these statements have to backed by evidence/data.

[PreludeSH]

We have enough skills for manufacturing. Investment is what is missing. Accept that advanced R&D is lacking skils. But even there I would say we have talent that can be trained by absorbing them into existing units. Only if NRI talent can come back to India to impart the skills and go back

We should stop belittling ourselves so much that we stop believing in us.

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by PreludeSH

We have enough skills for manufacturing. Investment is what is missing. Accept that advanced R&D is lacking skils. But even there I would say we have talent that can be trained by absorbing them into existing units.

This is so very true, we don't put money where mouth is.

If we think Ambani's have made an empire/conglomerate, then let's rewind back a little and see how they did it;

Refinery Design - The first refinery they made around 1996, The designer/process owner was Bechtel, by the time they went into big expansion during 2005 onwards, they have collaborated with Bechtel and made their own company as Becrel (Reliance-Bechtel JV), smooth transfer of design and picked Bechtel brains.

Refinery construction - They took the top brass of EIL (Engineers India Limited, crème da la crème of engineers in construction, mostly IITians). Result - No delays in construction projects, in-fact all refineries/projects were in production before time.

Refinery Operation - They took the top brass from IOCL/BPCL (The best engineers/people in oil refining), They run the most complex refineries in the world, with Nelson complexity index of 21.1. Can process the worst of the crude (higher Sulphur and heavy crude) in the world. Just today got to know that they have somewhat bypassed the sanctions from US to get dirt cheap Venezuelan crude. Soft power of marriage to get deals in billion of dollars !!

Petrochemical Operation - They picked the best engineers from IPCL, heck they even bought the whole company.

Gas Exploration - They picked the top brass from ONGC, KG basin and gas exploration on east coast. Did a JV with BP and used their expertise.

Reliance Administration - They picked the top bureaucrats (IAS) from the system.

Reliance Security - They picked people from Indian Army who were on short service commission. The lower rung security staff was type of retired "Agniveers". Our existing PM, then CM, was told Reliance security is much better than what his state government provides (minus weapons). The security guys around Ambani's get to train at Israel.

Mumbai Indians - You know how they pick the best of the talent from the market, If they can't get you, they snatch you

I won't go in details, how they had dummies sitting in the right positions in bureaucracy.

I don't know what they are doing with JIO, but I guess strategy would be the same, pick the best brains in the business.

You see it's all about right people and then giving them free hand. This all could have been done by Indian government too, but they (Government entities) don't get the money to open up their brains. What Reliance did differently is that they put their money where it was actually required and acquired the best human talent to take care of their business needs. Definitely they were paid quite handsomely and were allowed to take DECISIONS freely. They believed in horses for courses.

I'm sure if Reliance comes into auto sector, they will pick people from T-BHP.

Apologies if it went OT.

[sunilch]

Possible: Yes

Likelihood: Very low - Simply because China is way ahead of India in this aspect and there is a lot of catchup to do, apart from a lot of support and investment that will be needed.

For reference: WR-V (Elevate) is imported in Japan in large numbers and all of it is Made-In-India

https://www.autonews.com/manufacturi...rising-country

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Aut...with-low-price

[Mustang Sammy]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

Smartphone value addition in India was 16% in 2023 apparently, and expected to rise to 30% to 35% over the next few years.
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com...le67431038.ece

Originally Posted by OffRoadFun

Misleading spin by manufacturer(s).
There is NO company in India which makes OLED displays. It is just still primarily assembly which happens in India. The ecosystem to manufacture mobile components is NOT there in India. The processor SoC, the display, the PMIC (power supply chip) primary components are ALL made outside India in Taiwan/Korea and imported for assembly.

Yup. Those percentages make absolutely no sense. The Indian assemblers are somehow throwing sand in the eyes of the authorities.

Not a single commercial integrated circuit is made in India. And I would be extremely surprised if even the fine connectors and PCBs are manufactured locally. We tried finding PCB vendors for some simple applications just a couple years back, and it was very hard.

[alphamike_1612]

Ask any tinkerer who plays around with electronics as a hobby, they'll tell you how difficult it is to get something like PCB printing done in India and how cheap and quick it is from JLCPCB in China.

Robu and every other provider of electronics components and modules in India sources it from China. Hell, Robu has a Made in India module that comes with the wording "Made In India" on the silk screen of the PCB. Guess what? That is also made in China.

Smartplugs that are "Made in India" are actually "assembled in India". The plug's plastic enclosure arrives separately and the PCB arrives separately and they are fixed together and sold as "Made in India". The JioBook that was launched as "Made in India" was "assembled in India".

Rant incoming:

The sad reality today is that the World is dependent on South East Asia for Electronics of any and all kinds. It is even more sad that the Indian Government prevents individuals from buying on platforms like AliExpress while Corporations and resellers get to buy them dirt cheap, turn around and sell them for 10x the price that they bought it at.

As a hobbyist, my expenses have shot up since the Government banned AliExpress and AliBaba. What is even more worse is that certain components are not sold by these resellers and it becomes an extremely expensive if not impossible task to buy such items. Case in point - Mouse encoders, you simply can't get encoders except for the really popular models. On the other hand, AliExpress gives you 2 for a dollar.

Hypocrites..!!

Oh and it isn't just Electronics. Turns out Aluminium Extrusion profiles (The kind that you can put together without welding) and all it's associated accessories are imported from China.

Rant over.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by Mustang Sammy

Not a single commercial integrated circuit is made in India.

Originally Posted by alphamike_1612

Ask any tinkerer who plays around with electronics as a hobby, they'll tell you how difficult it is to get something like PCB printing done in India and how cheap and quick it is from JLCPCB in China.

Investments are all lined up. If you want to track progress of this sector, just read ET/Mint everyday.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com.../110542331.cms
https://www.livemint.com/companies/n...410766577.html

You cannot have a smartphone production value of $50 billion and exports of $15 billion by removing 'made in china' sticker & replacing it with 'made in India' sticker. Since giants like Foxconn and Samsung are involved in the manufacturing, it is clear that skills (expats) & technology is imported (especially during the teething phase). That's exactly what happened when Suzuki entered India in the 1980s.

And if for some reason you don't trust Indian sources, will New York Times work?
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/02/b...facturing.html

[volkman10]

No blanket opening of door to Chinese FDI, must continue with nuanced approach: DPIIT Secy

- The government cannot have a ‘blanket opening of the door’ to Chinese Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) and it takes a nuanced approach concerning such proposals.

-The suggestion is that we should put FDI investment by Chinese companies at a premium over the trade dependence that we seem to have.

-They could be of significant potential in specific areas and technologies.

- Can't do a blanket opening of the door. We will continue to follow the government route. A nuanced approach by the government looking at the usefulness of that particular investment flow will be taken.

-In the government clearance approach, one of the largest number of sets of cases which get cleared are from the electronics side.

-Although it seems like an investment from China, it's either a Taiwanese company or a Korean company or an American company which previously had operations in China (and) is trying to shift. Somewhere in that ecosystem there is some Chinese interest or a Hong Kong-based entity or someone who holds an equity share and therefore it looks like we need clearance as a Chinese investment

-You are better off having a Chinese company manufacturing in India than exporting directly from China So, to that extent, some latitude and some flexibility is needed.

Link:

[Mortis]

Originally Posted by alphamike_1612

more sad that the Indian Government prevents individuals from buying on platforms like AliExpress while Corporations and resellers get to buy them dirt cheap, turn around and sell them for 10x the price that they bought it at.

As a hobbyist, my expenses have shot up since the Government banned AliExpress and AliBaba. What is even more worse is that certain components are not sold by these resellers and it becomes an extremely expensive if not impossible task to buy such items. Case in point - Mouse encoders, you simply can't get encoders except for the really popular models. On the other hand, AliExpress gives you 2 for a dollar.

I was going to post something similar. I'll be happy if we get access to AliExpress as a first step, although currently AliExpress itself prevents Indians from buying from them.
(Does anyone know of a shipping forwarder for smaller stuff from AliExpress ?)

There are so many useful bits and bobs available for tinkering that are IMPOSSIBLE to find locally and the few things that are have huge and ridiculous markups. If a consumer is banned from buying the item from AliExpress, even if they pay import duties, how are importers allowed to get the same items via the "legal" route ? Very hypocritical according to me.
Then there's the issue of N number of items that are purportedly "Made in India" that are just imported from China and assembled here like you said.

In my opinion we can only do better than China in a few scenarios. China is way ahead and far superior in 95% of the manufacturing sectors and it's time for us to face the facts.

[volkman10]

India might relax restrictions on select Chinese investments:

The government envisages opening up sectors to Chinese investments in those areas that are deemed less sensitive from a security perspective.

a decision would be taken on a case to case basis, adding that curbs on the neighbouring country's investments in telecom and electronics will continue

The plans, if confirmed, could unlock investments from Beijing worth billion of dollars that were blocked by India over the last four years

Finance Minister's support of better economic ties with China was the first such public comment made by a ranking cabinet minister in the government.

Link:

[v1p3r]

Tangential but relevant:

Calling it quits: Why manufacturers in India are steadily migrating to the services sector
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...9.cms?from=mdr

[OffRoadFun]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

What is the reason for distrust in numbers provided by -

- Manufacturers

If the duty reduction on mobile chargers and *imported PCB* leads to immediate price reduction, it's anyone's guess what the value addition is. Charger is technologically least advanced part and PCB is being imported as such.

Source:today's TOI

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by OffRoadFun

If the duty reduction on mobile chargers and *imported PCB* leads to immediate price reduction, it's anyone's guess what the value addition is. Charger is technologically least advanced part and PCB is being imported as such. Source:today's TOI

As the screenshot says, iphone pro models are imported and that is seeing a price cut of Rs. 5,000 to Rs. 6,000. Looks like SE model is imported too, and that is seeing a price cut of Rs. 2,300. The made in India iphones (non-pro models) are seeing a price cut of just Rs. 300.

Anyway, the businessline article I posted previously says India value addition for iphones is just 6% to 8% of its India retail price. So if avg iphone price in India is $800, value addition in India is just $65. That is still fine because iPhones are expensive and it has big margins for Apple. Unlike most smartphones, majority of value addition for iphones is done in USA. After all, Apple not only designs & develops the iphone but also in charge of marketing/pricing. For iphones, China is No. 2 and other scraps are for countries like South Korea, Japan and Vietnam/India.

[subuiyer]

We lack in R&D for the lack of capital doesn't sit right for me. Here is an alternative view.

R&D is less about talent or capital. Capital you can borrow and talent you can hire (that is what most advanced economies are today).

R&D is about managing risks - that is where India and Indians fall short - we cannot borrow or buy/hire from outside for that.

It needs guts and sacrifices. Most people see China for what it is today, but not its journey through the decades that got it here. This is true for almost all advanced economies today.

Getting the right people and giving them free hand is not about money, it's about having the guts to take the right risks and then managing them to desired outcomes.

[PreludeSH]

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c87r7kp55e3o

Good details on how we are getting into middle income trap. We are growing top line but somehow going down on bottom line as far as jobs and income growth of ordinary people.