[SithDefender]

Originally Posted by samm

I would say these are very impressive FE figures for a huge car, with dual AC on throughout, and 4-5 passengers, with all luggage.

As a side note, I seriously doubt people buy Hycross for fuel savings. At least, that was not a concern for me.

Indeed, those are very impressive numbers!

Though fuel efficiency is not the primary reason, it does play a role in choosing between cars. Especially when compared to the XUV7OO which has single-digit mileage for the petrol behemoth!

[starke]

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

Thanks. It is a typo. I drive an EV so I am aware of difference between KW and KWH

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

Variable compression will be required for a series hybrid to power the car in case of heavy driving conditions like High speed, heavy acceleration. There is no option to rev the ICE as it has to run in an optimal RPM window. Now if a manufacturer can implement the same behaviour with lower RON fuel then it is a job well done.

Not really, For example in case of Nissan, only the new X-trail uses existing KR series world's first Variable compression for their series hybrid, all other series hybrids are based on normal Turbo engines.

And the engine does revvs to min and max RPM based on the acceleration/Batt SoC. The only main difference from normal ICE PWT is that the RPM does not exactly linear with vehicle speed, for example if there is enough charge in the battery, the engine stays off even if you accelerate heavily and if the battery has not enough charge even if you are going normal speed, the engine will run at some constant RPMs to charge it back. It might feel weird as we are used with linear engine revv sound as we accelerate.

So overall, any normal engine can be used for series hybrid system as long as it is an efficient engine which meets the power requirement based on vehicle segment.

[samm]

Originally Posted by SithDefender

Indeed, those are very impressive numbers!

Though fuel efficiency is not the primary reason, it does play a role in choosing between cars. Especially when compared to the XUV7OO which has single-digit mileage for the petrol behemoth!

If you need 6 people to travel with decent amount of luggage, XUV700 is not an option at all! .
Also, I never compared hybrid with petrol. It was always hybrid vs diesel when economics come into play, for the long run.

[Ford5]

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

Honda e:HEV (Honda has a slightly different implementation)

Hello, what’s different in Hondas implementation?

[ferrarirules]

Originally Posted by Ford5

Hello, what’s different in Hondas implementation?

Honda e:HEV technology behaves as series hybrid for majority of the time. When the speed crosses 75-80 kmph. The engine powers the wheels directly. But like Toyota's implementation, there is no case where the motor and the engine power the wheels together

Difference with Series Parallel Hybrid



Difference with Series Hybrid



Source - Honda Global Site

[narayans80]

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

Auto Start/Stop - The engine shuts down when the car is idling and starts it up when you want to move ahead

To be politically correct, the car will start up when the battery loses juice to sustain your idling energy consumption (head unit, MID, headlights, indicators and AC).

I saw zero gain in FE with that. So am not paying a penny more to have "mild hybrid" as a feature.

I have a diesel MUV that runs as a daily driver and could likely complement an BEV sometime down the line. I can atleast see the running cost drop from 5 Rs/km to 1.5 Rs/km. Add a solar panel, I can even get it to zero.

Hycross/Invicto start at 33L and I don't see the value add going that far when fuel cost would be in the same region.

[gharika]

For EV and plug in hybrids, we also need to consider how the electricity is generated. With coal powered electricity plants, we are only moving the pollution from one location to another.
For the strong hybrid, the ICE tech used will be a bigger factor both in terms of fuel efficiency and emissions.
The bigger question will be an alternative to personal transport. We waste more fuel when a vehicle is not fully utilized. So a public transport bus going around on its route empty is a waste as well. I guess I am digressing from the topic here, but bigger goal is emissions, then efficiency and then convenience .

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by gharika

For EV and plug in hybrids, we also need to consider how the electricity is generated. ....... I guess I am digressing from the topic here, but bigger goal is emissions, then efficiency and then convenience .

We're going off topic.

For India, the biggest goal is energy independence and cutting down the massive import bill and trade deficit due to the crude oil addiction.

India imported 232.5 million metric tonnes (MMT) of crude oil in the financial year 2023-24. We're the world's third-biggest oil importer and spent a staggering $132.4 billion importing oil in fiscal year 2023-24.

That is why it's important for the country's energy independence to be self reliant, and using electricity for transportation is a solution. We have enough coal resources and have rapidly expanding renewable capacity.

This has been discussed elaborately and repeatedly on multiple threads regarding EVs.

[gopalnt]

Originally Posted by shortbread

We're going off topic.

For India, the biggest goal is energy independence and cutting down the massive import bill and trade deficit due to the crude oil addiction.

India imported 232.5 million metric tonnes (MMT) of crude oil in the financial year 2023-24. We're the world's third-biggest oil importer and spent a staggering $132.4 billion importing oil in fiscal year 2023-24.

That is why it's important for the country's energy independence to be self reliant, and using electricity for transportation is a solution. We have enough coal resources and have rapidly expanding renewable capacity.

This has been discussed elaborately and repeatedly on multiple threads regarding EVs.

Moving to EV will make us dependent on China which is far more bad situation for India than importing oil. The import or the bill won't stop.

[samm]

Even though I own a series/parallel hybrid, I voted for Plugin hybrid. Having seen the benefits of hybrid, just wish if there is a little more electric range (40-50km) for city use, which could be charged from home. Obviously I don't want to lose any interior or luggage space, so plugin hybrid with a floor battery design would be ideal.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by gopalnt

Moving to EV will make us dependent on China which is far more bad situation for India than importing oil. The import or the bill won't stop.

No it won't, we're increasingly indigenizing EV production and the final bastion is cells. I'm not saying it'll happen overnight but it's achievable and plans are afoot. On the other hand the share of imported crude in domestic oil consumption is nearing 90%! We're totally at the mercy of oil cartels, geopolitics etc... when it comes to energy dependence. Plus oil is a consumable and is a daily recurring purchase for the end user, unlike EV componentry which is a one time purchase. Again these points have been clearly discussed and explained in other threads.

[ferrarirules]

Originally Posted by gopalnt

Moving to EV will make us dependent on China which is far more bad situation for India than importing oil. The import or the bill won't stop.

I already answered this point of your's in a post in this thread itself - link (Hybrid Drivetrain Options: Navigating the Advantages and Disadvantages in today's context). Requesting you to not make this thread about EV vs ICE/Hybrid. There are numerous other threads for the same discussion.

[gopalnt]

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

I already answered this point of your's in a post in this thread itself - link (Hybrid Drivetrain Options: Navigating the Advantages and Disadvantages in today's context). Requesting you to not make this thread about EV vs ICE/Hybrid. There are numerous other threads for the same discussion.

This post is exactly about debate on different power trains, including EV vs ICE . And I was responding to the point of external dependency on fuel sources.

[anu21v]

Voted for PHEV,


I would any day prefer a 200KM Electric Range car with an onboard Generator (a la Chevy Volt) over a car with 500KM pure Electric Range.

1. having onboard generator Quells the Range anxiety

2. I am guessing the lower weight of battery pack from 500Km to 200Km will balance out the additional weight of ICE engine, fuel tank and fuel lines.

3. it will ensure my city rides are covered purely with EV range even if I have to live in city like Mumbai or NCR with to-and-fro distance of 80+ Kms each side. Plus time and egergy consumed in a stalled traffic.

4. For long distances on highways you can keep on charging as many times as possible but do not have to rely upon charging network and queues.

5. Can take it even in remote areas like Leh-Ladakh /North-east/Rajasthan etc.

Sadly there is nothing like this available in Indian market in mass segment even though this seems much more practical and seemingly lower cost than a 500+Km Range pure Battery electric car. Seems like Tax system is inverted for this sort of vehicle.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by starke

Very interesting and useful thread as India market is moving towards Hybrids.

I voted for Series hybrid especially for India because,
1. Less complexity and parts (no transmission).
2. Can almost carry over existing engines and add a Gen/Motor setup.
3. Much more reliable than parallel hybrids.
4. Enjoy the best of pure EV acceleration & smoothness w/o investing in an
EV (No range anxiety)

They are not any less complex for example than a Toyota Hybrid system and are not as efficient either. Toyota Hybrid system does not have a gearbox either but instead a power split device which can run the system as a parallel hybrid, a series htybrid, a combination of both or even pure EV mode. They do not have a reverse gear too since the motor is simply run in reverse polarity for the car to go backwards, no starter motor for the engine, no airconditioning belts and pulleys.

The Nissan system needs to have a bigger generator and a relatively bigger battery since it powered by the electricity produced and power stored in the battery. For the same reason it does not have full claimed system power when the batter is low since they quote the electric power and not the ICE engine power which is lower than the electric power. The system also puts more demand of the still small battery when powering the car.

There is no question that the Toyota system is better and more efficient.

Originally Posted by starke

But as we all know it, pure EV will take over majority in the future unless we find another alternate energy source (Fossil fuels ain't one of them).
To myself, I will get a cheap EV if my commute is under 300 km/week or a Series/Plugin EV at a premium cost to enjoy C or D segment cars & for long trips.

You can simply top up your EV at home after every trip. You do not have to wait for the battery to go to zero. The range question only comes up for long distance driving and the limiting factor is the number of fast chargers not the range by itself.

Originally Posted by starke

1 kWh ( For motor power we use kW, in short, a 1 kWh battery can run a 1 kW motor for 1 hour at rated power)

Theoretically if the motor and the battery were 100% efficient. In reality it will be closer to 80 percent

Originally Posted by starke

CVTs are more preferred for less perf/high fuel efficient segments.

CVT's are the best kind of transmission for extracting the maximum performance from the engine - the engine can keep spinning at the RPM it produces maximum power while the gear ratio's can be varied infinitely based on the driving conditions. In a stepped transmissions, you fall out of the powerband everytime you up shift or downshift. They were so good that they were banned from F1.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willia...VT%20in%201993.

Toyota's Hybrid eCVT is only CVT in that it has infinite gear ratio's but it works completely different to a tradition belts and pulley CVT transmission.

Originally Posted by anu21v

Voted for PHEV,

I would any day prefer a 200KM Electric Range car with an onboard Generator (a la Chevy Volt) over a car with 500KM pure Electric Range.

1. having onboard generator Quells the Range anxiety

2. I am guessing the lower weight of battery pack from 500Km to 200Km will balance out the additional weight of ICE engine, fuel tank and fuel lines.

3. it will ensure my city rides are covered purely with EV range even if I have to live in city like Mumbai or NCR with to-and-fro distance of 80+ Kms each side. Plus time and egergy consumed in a stalled traffic.

4. For long distances on highways you can keep on charging as many times as possible but do not have to rely upon charging network and queues.

5. Can take it even in remote areas like Leh-Ladakh /North-east/Rajasthan etc.

Sadly there is nothing like this available in Indian market in mass segment even though this seems much more practical and seemingly lower cost than a 500+Km Range pure Battery electric car. Seems like Tax system is inverted for this sort of vehicle.

They are the worst of both infact. You are either running an EV inefficiently because you are lugging a dead engine and a gearbox when running on battery or vice versa when the engine and gearbox are lugging a 200+kg dead battery. You dont get the full benefits of either tech - poor range and you still have to maintain an ICE engine. Besides, the batteries are much heavier in plug-in hybrids than they ought to be because of safety considerations given their application in an ICE engined car. They dont have as good battery management or longevity either because the battery is not as well managed as it is in a pure EV.

All in all a terrible solution which sounds good only on paper.