[sharmanova]

After a long gap, Tata Motors will get back to launch 4X4 SUVs with the Harrier EV which the brand showcased at the Bharat Mobility Expo 2025.

Speaking to Autocar India, Vivek Srivatsa, Chief Commercial Officer of Tata Passenger Electric Mobility, said, “It's a good time for us to do this [4WD]. For the longest of time, we've been saying there's no business case, but we've seen consumers going towards heart buys again.”

Tata Motors has confirmed that the Harrier EV will be launched in the first half of 2025.

Source

[GTO]

Great to hear and hope to see 4x4 / AWD in Tata's petrol & diesel SUVs, as is the case with Mahindra's line-up. Despite the sales percentage being small, 4x4s bring a different kind of image & customer to the car range. Plus, Tata has decades of experience with 4x4s (Safari) and AWD (Land Rover).

Although it's easier to give an EV AWD, EVs and offroading don't go well together. Period. Revv hard as you will in offroad conditions and your range will drop alarmingly fast! Try redlining an EV and you'll know what I mean. With no charger close by and the real possibility of being stranded in the middle of nowhere, range anxiety will destroy your experience. Your EV's 300 km range can quickly become 100 km in offroading.

No fast chargers in the middle of nowhere. Actually, no electricity either . Still, great to see the AWD on Tatas, even if EV.

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by sharmanova

After a long gap, Tata Motors will get back to launch 4X4 SUVs with the Harrier EV which the brand showcased at the Bharat Mobility Expo 2025....“It's a good time for us to do this [4WD]. For the longest of time, we've been saying there's no business case, but we've seen consumers going towards heart buys again.”

Let them launch AWD in ICE vehicles (no platform to support 4x4) and we can know they are serious. It is convenient for them to launch AWD in EVs, since it is technically easier, the competition already does and they are compelled to. Hormaz Sorabjee's recent post citing the reason (lame one) for TATA to not offer AWD in the Omega platform is just part of this (we want to but we are helpless) soft peddling by TATA IMO.

That said, am excited that the Harrier EV AWD system is rumoured to be RWD biased.

[dhanushs]

While customers leaning more towards what the "heart says" is perfectly right, Indian consumers are also finding more use cases for 4x4. It is also slowly developing an image of safety too. Beyond adventure, 4WD is slowly gaining an image of safety too - Like having the confidence to tackle unknown road trips through bad roads.

That said, getting a 4WD right is not easy. Just plonking a transfer case and a front axle doesn't make it 4WD. There are multiple aspects to it which I hope TATA can leverage the LR expertise.

But then again, the latest Defender for absolute off-road capability - I think not great. Well, they have driven a great product narrative, but the 2.0 HSE variant costing more than a crore doesn't even offer switchable diff-locks. I wonder what the product intent was?

Coming to EV's and 4x4's.. well the possibilities to bring in fancy features and absolute capability is endless!! The level of control and flexibility the electric architecture gives you is just an engineers delight who wants to make the car perform.

Originally Posted by GTO

..Revv hard as you will in offroad conditions and your range will drop alarmingly fast! Try redlining an EV and you'll know what I mean. With no charger close by and the real possibility of being stranded in the middle of nowhere, range anxiety will destroy your experience. Your EV's 300 km range can quickly become 100 km in offroading.

No fast chargers in the middle of nowhere. Actually, no electricity either .

Well, unike ICE cars, EV's dont need to revv hard to develop the peak torque and thats just a beautiful thing. Infact, while being away from civilization is a fact, I think EV cars will give more practical range during off-road. All your waiting time on the trails dont need to burn fuel, with V2L you can satsify all your power needs and the slightest tap of the pedal gives you all the torque you need.

For EV's it's Enthusiastic Driving through ghats that is the most demanding.

[theAutomaniac]

Originally Posted by sharmanova

Speaking to Autocar India, Vivek Srivatsa, Chief Commercial Officer of Tata Passenger Electric Mobility, said, “It's a good time for us to do this [4WD]. For the longest of time, we've been saying there's no business case, but we've seen consumers going towards heart buys again.”

Do they even realize that when people spend on a 4x4 for "heart", they go for lifestyle vehicles like Thar, Gurkha, Hilux, V-Cross, Jimny, even family SUVs like Fortuner and Scorpio-N, and not an electric AWD crossover?

Also, who says 4x4s and AWDs have seen an increase in demand? Thar is by far the most popular lifestyle SUV in India and even in that, 90% sales come from the RWD models. Jimny, Hilux, Gurkha being full-time 4x4s don't sell well and even the 4x4 variants of ScorpioN and Fortuner don't sell well!

I'll believe this statement of them giving what "a consumer's heart wants" when they launch a 4x4 like the Jimny/Thar/Gurkha or at the very least an AWD like the XUV7OO/Grand-Vitara. They have the perfect opportunity to do that with the Sierra ICE and if they waste this nameplate with a FWD-only drivetrain, I literally don't see any other product by them that can be considered by heart! And if Sierra 4x4 doesn't happen, I'd wholeheartedly say that a BE6 will remain the most attractive 2WD in the market.

Until then, such statements mean nothing and feel just like marketing ploys.

[07CR]

Originally Posted by sharmanova

Speaking to Autocar India, Vivek Srivatsa, Chief Commercial Officer of Tata Passenger Electric Mobility, said, “It's a good time for us to do this [4WD]. For the longest of time, we've been saying there's no business case, but we've seen consumers going towards heart buys again.”

I guess they are aware of the fact that the Mahindra BE twins have taken the internet by storm! They maybe questioning if Tata upcoming EVs are as ground breaking as the Mahindra. That's the same reason Sierra EV was not showcased at Auto Expo (which was before the BE twins birth almost ready with the spyshots showing a hot design). Hence to differentiate they are plonking in a AWD setup in the Harrier EV.

That said, if they are serious enough, they can surely launch a AWD/4*4 in the Harrier/Safari ICE. Until then I feel its the above reason they are providing the 4WD in the Harrier EV.

[buzzy_boy]

Personally, I wouldn't buy an ICE 4WD; however, I wouldn't mind buying an EV 4WD.

Reason: more complexity = more chances of failure = more expenditure.

My solution: buy a pre-owned Force Gurkha and have as much fun as you want.

In EVs, the 4WD architecture need not be as complex due to the lack of a need for a transmission. Plus, with so much torque on offer, I would go with a 4WD for an EV just for safety reasons.

[ramki.grandhi]

I agree with Mr Vivek and a company that sells lakhs of cars per year should have an option of AWD or 4WD. But if given a choice, I would prefer them to focus on getting us a very good petrol engine for Harrier twins. This would increase Harrier/Safari sales at least 30%.

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by sharmanova

Speaking to Autocar India, Vivek Srivatsa, Chief Commercial Officer of Tata Passenger Electric Mobility, said, “It's a good time for us to do this [4WD]. For the longest of time, we've been saying there's no business case, but we've seen consumers going towards heart buys again.”

Ah - the Tata Motors Legacy returns. Not the legacy of 4x4, no no! The legacy of hilarious statements made in public.

This particular gem from Mr. Srivatsa, resonates very highly with a decade old similar statement that sounded something like - "We always started with the Zest sedan. We never planned a hatchback at all. The BOLT hatchback came much later as a byproduct".

And they wanted people to believe that these were not spin-offs from the Vista/Manza. Come on Tata, grow up . You ate dung, at least gracefully accept it.

[kgt.v8]

Getting option of 4WD in an EV is a good thing. I feel AWD setup is more suitable with an EV and not 4WD since EVs can be used for intercity and intracity travel and long trips on highways.

An ICE 4WD and AWD gives you the confidence to take the car on bad roads, bad weather conditions and sometimes go on offbeat paths and not have fear of getting stuck. Tata had lot of experience with Safari and 4x4, but they ditched all of it to push Harrier and new Safari which themselves are not selling much.
If Tata decides to bring back 4WD in an EV, I feel it is not the right investment for them just to compete with Mahindra. Mahindra SUVs have capable and proven 4x4 and 4WD and the customers will prefer those compared to a new Tata.


EV and 4WD will never go together as per my perspective for next 5-10 years due to one or combination of below points

Dual motor with lot of sensors and electronics vs Transfer case

• EV - EVs would use 4WD with dual motor - one powering front wheel and one powering rear wheels. Dual motor setup and differentials functioning together could make a capable 4WD car. Getting this setup right requires lot of investment and quality to get the things right. I have seen few videos of Hummer EV and the Hummer EV looks capable. Hummer EV is different beast altogether as per my perspective compared to other AWD EVs presently available.
• ICE car - ICE 4x4 or 4WD would use transfer case to put car in 2WD, 4H or 4L depending on the need. The car remains in lower gear, locking differentials come into action and enough torque is available to get the vehicle out of tricky situations.

Instant Torque:

• EV - All the torque is available from starting and there is less power loss. When tackling offroad instant torque could be beneficial to take the car out, but it is scary to imagine if you input too much throttle and car goes out of control when it suddenly comes out. This puts more pressure on the brakes and inputs from sensors to keep the wheel spin or keeping wheels that are locked under control.
• ICE car - There is no such thing as instant torque.

Range anxiety:

• EV - EV has to be driven to remote path or offroad which will consume charge. When EV goes offroad, the range would drop drastically as compared to driving on flat tarmac due to keeping car in higher RPM and no very less movement of wheels. There is no charging infrastructure available to charge the car or top up charge when the range goes low when offroading and when you are in remote places with less fuel pumps. Electricity is not available all the time in remote places, so charging EV with regular charger would become tricky in remote places.
• ICE car - An ICE car can be refueled at any fuel station which come on the way in remote places. You can carry fuel in a jerry can when you know the car will require fuel up in between and there are no fuel pumps nearby. The jerry can removes range anxiety in ICE car. No such thing is available in an EV.

Customer base
4WD ICE car has small customer base (as Tata has quoted multiple times in the past).
4WD EV has an even small percentage of customer base compared to 4WD ICE car customers.

I would not rely on what Tata shows in these expo, as some of these are just showcase projects to keep customer interest up. I still remember Tata showcasing Hexa in AutoExpo 2020 as if they were going to get Varicor 400 BS6 compliant. Harrier EV has been displayed for 2+ years and not see that many times actually on the road

[arjab]

Originally Posted by sharmanova

Speaking to Autocar India, Vivek Srivatsa, Chief Commercial Officer of Tata Passenger Electric Mobility, said, “It's a good time for us to do this [4WD]. For the longest of time, we've been saying there's no business case, but we've seen consumers going towards heart buys again.”
Tata Motors has confirmed that the Harrier EV will be launched in the first half of 2025.

Source

I watched the interview of the senior TML person with Autocar India. Personally, it seemed that he was not at all convinced of what he was saying to the media person. The mumbo-jumbo about "heart-buys" and all that was pure marketing spiel.

The fact of the matter is TML totally shot themselves in the foot during the development phase of the new Harrier and Safari.
They got a good platform, the Land Rover D8, a.k.a the Freelander/Discovery 2nd gen, to base their new Harrier / Safari upon but came across one massive engineering hurdle during vehicle integration.

The engine was from FIAT and though the D8 platform could support 4WD, it was impossible to integrate the 2.0L Fiat MJD in an AWD configuration.
The propellor shaft out from the gearbox end, which is needed for 4WD to send the power to the rear differential, fouled with the centre tunnel.
You could not move the engine in the engine bay to "align" the propshaft as the engine would then be misaligned vis a vis the vehicle centre line.
The other solution was to modify the centre tunnel itself. That would mean a significant modification to the core platform and a very, very, very expensive proposition. Hence the decision to go with only 2WD.

TML put up a brave face and said at that time; I remember an interview somewhere, by some top TML guy, that a miniscule number of their customers wanted 4WD and they would not be losing out much in terms of sales and brand image.
What that chap did not mention was that when the old ladder frame Safari was on sale, almost 12-15% of Safari sales were of the 4x4 version. Not to mention the army Safari sales, all of which were 4x4's. Incidentally there was also a 4x4 Sumo on offer many years back which sold in decent numbers to the defence forces.

So TML could only sit by, twiddle their thumbs and watch Mahindra make millions with their THAR 3-door 4WD & Scorpio 4WD (around 20% of Scorpio-N are 4WD's selling to civilian and armed forces).
Then came the Jimny; which though a sales flop as per Maruti's internal sales target numbers; managed to democratise 4x4's amongst the "family-personal" segment and still sells between 800-900 units per month. Then the big one arrived: THAR ROXX. As per dealer-speak, around 20% of THAR ROXX bookings are for 4WD.

And all of these: Thar 3-door, Jimny, Thar Roxx are ICE 4WD's.

It is too early to comment on the fate of the Harrier AWD at the sales stakes.
But one thing can be safely surmised: it will be a costly car. Also heavy.

EV's, on an average are about 15% heavier compared to their ICE counterparts. A Tata Harrier, manual transmission, weighs somewhere around 1,700 kgs at the kerb. Add 15% on that and you have a vehicle which could potentially weigh-in at close to 1,900 kgs at the kerb! (with passengers and luggage it may cross 2-tons!)
Now, how much all of this weight will have an impact on the EV Harrier's performance and most importantly range remains to be seen. Usage under 4x4 conditions will deplete battery juice faster.
I don't think sales of 4x4 Harrier EV will be much. I'm estimating it'll be less than 10% of total Harrier EV sales.

For their 4x4 dreams to successfully fructify, what TML needs is an ICE or better still a hybrid version of a thoroughly modern day 2025 Sumo.
This will take on Thar, Thar Roxx, Jimny and the slow selling Force Gurkha. Brand it well, position it well and price it competitively. Then it can well and truly be back in the 4x4 game and be a car which customers will be willing to choose.
The newly showcased Sierra, in a Hybrid AWD avataar? Worth a feasibility check TML?

[NiInJa]

When it comes to SUVs, Tata has gone in all directions, but never reached the place they intended to. Till they get the engine and body (chassis/frame) mated correctly, they are not going to have ICE 4WD.

Here are some blunders that they made at crucial times, which put them in a situation they are today.

- Spent lot of money on perfecting the 2.2 liter DICOR engine which was originally the engine block from older Tata vehicles. This was done by AVL Austria. But then, this engine never made it to next gen Safari. Infact the 2.2 Dicor is nowhere to be seen after BS6

- Improved older Safari's/Aria's ladder-frame chassis to come up with better versions of Safari and Hexa. Cars based on their hydroformed chassis (using 2.2 dicor/varicor diesel engines) could not make it after BS6. This ended their 4WD era.

- Got a new platform for SUVs from Range Rover, but had to settle with Fiat 2.0 Liter diesel. Not sure what caused this shift from their homegrown chassis and engine combo.
Could not align engine and body frame to get 4WD working in the new platform

- After the original Safari petrol, they never invested in R&D of a high power petrol engine, or never acquired any company that had similar tech, they never got a proper petrol engine that could work in big and heavy cars. (Mahindra getting Ssangyong's TGDi petrol engine and Land Rover's petrol engine being too expensive to modify and localise)

I am all in for 4WD EV Safari, but this will cater to a very small percentage of car enthusiasts who can afford to take an EV for offroading adventures. I have not seen any test mules of Safari EV in the Leh/Himachal Pradesh yet.

[DRPSREDDY]

Originally Posted by NiInJa

- Got a new platform for SUVs from Range Rover, but had to settle with Fiat 2.0 Liter diesel. Not sure what caused this shift from their homegrown chassis and engine combo.
Could not align engine and body frame to get 4WD working in the new platform

- After the original Safari petrol, they never invested in R&D of a high power petrol engine, or never acquired any company that had similar tech, they never got a proper petrol engine that could work in big and heavy cars. (Mahindra getting Ssangyong's TGDi petrol engine and Land Rover's petrol engine being too expensive to modify and localise)

I always was a thought that they should have got to the market and bought out a 2.0L petrol and 2.0 L diesel engine with tech transfer from any makers across the world and should have worked on it to improvise for their application. That should have made it easier for them to work around the engine as an when needed.

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by NiInJa

Infact the 2.2 Dicor is nowhere to be seen after BS6

Very much alive, but not kicking. Still lives on their CV offerings, but in a terribly detuned 99bhp/250nm meeting BS6 norms.

Originally Posted by NiInJa

- Improved older Safari's/Aria's ladder-frame chassis to come up with better versions of Safari and Hexa. Cars based on their hydroformed chassis (using 2.2 dicor/varicor diesel engines) could not make it after BS6. This ended their 4WD era.

The day they stopped the Hexa (and the X2 platform), knew the era of proper TATA UVs was over. To think that when the Xenon was launched, TATA had more global ambitions than Mahindra did. And now?