Fuel efficiency norm for cars ready. EDIT : Coming our way in 2011

GTO · 18th July 2008, 19:12

I think the Indian buyer does a better of job of keeping gas guzzlers off the road....they simply don't buy them!! What better than the market to decide which car sells and which doesn't. What the government really needs to do is have official tests and FE numbers, something like the EPA in the States.

amit · 19th July 2008, 11:41

Government wants poor performers to meet fuel efficiency standards?! What a joke! The biggest poor performer is the government itself. Even with the existing engines, ALL cars avaliable in India will give much better mileage if the government improves road infrastructure and makes sure that the government owned oil companies give better quality fuel.

Yesterday, it took me 90 minutes to drive from Churchgate to Chembur - a distance of about 22-25 kms. That's a fabulous speed of about 12 KMPH!

musicmanaman · 19th July 2008, 15:41

This will just create another way for the government to make money from Car manifacturers, where each car the car company makes, there will be many levels for the car company to satisfy for the car to hit the road.

arunmur · 19th July 2008, 15:54

Whos going to bother what we want? Its going to be implemented any way.

Leaving that behind the testing method is not even clear. How do they expect manufacturers to meet those norms, its going to be like shooting an supersonic aricraft with a pistol. Also i think 8 weight categories is too less to categorize cars from 500-4000kgs. A 1000kG car will give 60% less mileage than an 600KG car because it is 60% heavier and most probably much safer. With such nice policies they are going to make us drive ultra light cars(sheet metal more like paper from your old school book.

I say they impose these standards just to charge taxes on heavier and more polluting cars to subsidize and research for newer/alternative technologies. But before that you need a very clear testing plan and how it meets our day to day driving style. For example in Bangalore a car more or less idles or moves at low speed below 20 kmph for about 80% of its life time on road but the same in Ooty it will be doing hard climbs at 30-40 kmph or providing engine braking at 20 kmph and in some other town it will be mostly zipping at 60-70kmph. I guess we can device 10-15 odd scenarios on testing and put the car through various scenarios. The rating for the car in each scenario must be provided. The final rating of the car must be given for each city/RTO based on how much the scenario is faced in the city/RTO(weighted average). That will bring down fuel consumption overall in the country. If you want to make it a bit more clear, also consider providing more than one rating(say three, economy type, normal and throttle to the metal type) one for each style of driving.

snaronikar · 19th July 2008, 16:14

Govt is doing something finally against the great fuel guzzlers. If this comes into effect, then it will be a boon for all auto buyers. But the question is when & how?

yzfrj · 19th July 2008, 17:32

Its not the Car or the engine or the manufacturer that is the problem.
Its not the driver.

The problem is the system and the level or corruption we have in our country.

Remember the helmet laws ? And helmet selling like hotcakes at 2,3 time the normal price.
Who suffered ? Us the people.
Does anyone care, if you fall ?
If they really do why the roads looks like dirt tracks ?

New laws ? for what new innovative ways to make money from the people.
If the government is really serious about the FE and environmental issues.

Why is the only electric car (Reva) is still visible only around Bangalore and costs more that the M800 ?

Why is the Civic Hybrid costing twice its petrol cousin ?

Mileage control, huh ?
First fix the potholes at least then think about fixing the FE.

anjan_c2007 · 19th July 2008, 17:52

The fuel economy standards for cars are ready. By the end of this year, the government will implement voluntary labelling of cars and by 2011-12, the fuel efficiency norms will be made mandatory for all passenger vehicles — any car that fails will not be allowed on the road after the cut-off date.

The government hopes that by imposing the standards, consumers will be able to make a more informed decision while buying a car besides resulting in savings of 5-15 million tonnes of oil from the passenger vehicle segment by 2030.

What to say of policy makers who go by car length (< 4000mm) and engine size (<1200cc petrol and < 1500cc diesel) to define small cars? Will they be able to arrive at logical solutions without any technical background?

aaggoswami · 27th November 2009, 19:15

Fuel Efficiency standards for auto sector by 2011.
I am totally against this.
What about :

a) RTO giving license after just 100-200m straight drive ?
b) Corruption in RTO ?
c) Even if a and b are taken care of, what about thousands that are driving in indiscipline manner ?
d) What about quality of fuel ?
e) What about roads and proper infrastructure ?

Source : Fuel-efficiency standards for auto sector by 2011: Ramesh

Article :

Quote:

NEW DELHI: The Government is in the final stage of notifying the fuel efficiency standards for automobile sector in the country, which would be enforced from 2011, the Environment Minister, Mr Jairam Ramesh, said on Monday.

We are right now engaged in finalising administrative formalities on how these standards have to be notified either through the Energy Conservation Act or the Motor Vehicles Act, Mr Ramesh said at the inaugural session of the two-day 4th Environment Friendly Vehicles conference here.

He said there was no two views that, we should move to a mandatory fuel efficiency standards regime by 2011 as the transport sector contributes about 15-20 per cent of the total greenhouse gas emissions in the country. How it should be done is being de bated within the Government, he said.

Currently, the transport sector is placed at number three after the power and agriculture sector as far as the national emissions are concerned.

But the rate at which the automobile sector is growing our own estimations are that by the year 2030 it could account close to 25 per cent of our GHG emissions. Hence not only because of the air pollution point of view but also the climate change point of view, environment-friendly transportation assume special importance, Mr Ramesh added.

McLaren Rulez · 27th November 2009, 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

Fuel Efficiency standards for auto sector by 2011.
I am totally against this.
What about :

a) RTO giving license after just 100-200m straight drive ?
b) Corruption in RTO ?
c) Even if a and b are taken care of, what about thousands that are driving in indiscipline manner ?
d) What about quality of fuel ?
e) What about roads and proper infrastructure ?

What's wrong with a fuel efficiency standard? So what if there are other problems problems in the RTO and wherever else? That doesn't mean that this initiative is wrong. Good move, if you ask me. The only doubt in my mind is what happens to sports/performace cars. But I guess they'll have provisions for them.

aaggoswami · 27th November 2009, 20:03

I fail to understand that why cant we atleast attempt to solve an issue from the base.

1) Driver indiscipline and license being given to non deserving candidates.

What eventually happens ? They drive badly on roads and in a combined way, they bring indiscipline, improper parking on roads. This leads to more traffic jams which waste fuel. This reduces efficiency by a good margin in city.
Can we act on this ?

2) Bad roads. This is very well documented and people know about it. If this is solved, then FE will go up. Is this being done ?

3) Fuel quality and quantity. We all know that is an important factor. Bad fuel is not good for any car and leads to lower efficiency. What is done about this ? And there are thieves omni present that try their best to cheat customer by giving less fuel.

In general, India is a very FE centric market from begenning thanks to lot of taxes ( we borrowed british system that britishers build for slaves, remember ? ) on each litre of fuel. So each car before being launched is detuned for higher FE and this is done by almost all major manufacturers. The reason why M13 never made into swift is this. It was heavier unit and also larger.
Manufacturers do tune their car for higher FE as compared to the models sold in developed markets. Is this not enough.

And what is real usage of this ? On an open road if I floor any car, its going to use more fuel. Cars today are sufficiently engineered to offer good FE and this depends a lot on how you drive and driving conditions.

This is just a new norm by ministers for wrong purpose IMHO.

.anshuman · 27th November 2009, 23:23

I feel its good for envoirnment, cars should be taxed according to how much they pollute. The Co2 per km and FE display should be made mandatory in every advertisement related to any specific automobile.

rm_arjuna · 28th November 2009, 13:34

IMO FE standard would reflect more on the auto company's ,since they have to upgrade from the current set-up which also means they cannot thrust sub-standard products on us and also it is a step in the right direction towards conserving fossil fuel .

Just to draw synergies ,Consumer products have started adopting BEE Star rating reflecting energy saving .Now we have become more aware on the product efficiency and are willing to pay the little premium considering long-term cost benefits . We are also aware of the acute power situation in peak months does that stop us from buying a better product.

Primarily we dont have the political will to stem the ROT in the system and it is classic case of Chicken or Hen Story

somu_john · 28th November 2009, 13:39

all scrap, just another medium for rtos to increase their wealth. But it is a good thought if implemented properly and efficiently.

Shan2nu · 28th November 2009, 13:44

Firstly, do they mean fuel efficiency or fuel economy? Coz performance engines are pretty efficient at utilizing their fuel.

And if they mean fuel economy, how do they decide on a particular figure? Will that figure be for city or highway conditions?

Shan2nu

Raccoon · 28th November 2009, 15:50

I'd agree with aaggoswami. While the emission norms are welcome, you can't neglect the other factors contributing to pollution. Adulterated fuel, bad roads, badly designed roads, etc., contribute hugely to pollution. Just emphasizing on one factor and not doing much for the other big factors is lop sided. These factors need urgent redressal.

But by far the biggest problem is the population problem. No matter how strngent the emission norms, if there are more people with more cars, it will all be nullified.

18th July 2008, 19:12	#16
GTO Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 70,546 Thanked: 300,789 Times View My Garage	I think the Indian buyer does a better of job of keeping gas guzzlers off the road....they simply don't buy them!! What better than the market to decide which car sells and which doesn't. What the government really needs to do is have official tests and FE numbers, something like the EPA in the States.
	() Thanks

19th July 2008, 11:41	#17
amit Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 3,717 Thanked: 449 Times	Government wants poor performers to meet fuel efficiency standards?! What a joke! The biggest poor performer is the government itself. Even with the existing engines, ALL cars avaliable in India will give much better mileage if the government improves road infrastructure and makes sure that the government owned oil companies give better quality fuel. Yesterday, it took me 90 minutes to drive from Churchgate to Chembur - a distance of about 22-25 kms. That's a fabulous speed of about 12 KMPH!
	() Thanks

19th July 2008, 15:41	#18
musicmanaman BHPian Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: kolkata Posts: 927 Thanked: 25 Times	This will just create another way for the government to make money from Car manifacturers, where each car the car company makes, there will be many levels for the car company to satisfy for the car to hit the road.
	() Thanks

19th July 2008, 15:54	#19
arunmur BHPian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Bangalore Posts: 156 Thanked: 10 Times	Whos going to bother what we want? Its going to be implemented any way. Leaving that behind the testing method is not even clear. How do they expect manufacturers to meet those norms, its going to be like shooting an supersonic aricraft with a pistol. Also i think 8 weight categories is too less to categorize cars from 500-4000kgs. A 1000kG car will give 60% less mileage than an 600KG car because it is 60% heavier and most probably much safer. With such nice policies they are going to make us drive ultra light cars(sheet metal more like paper from your old school book. I say they impose these standards just to charge taxes on heavier and more polluting cars to subsidize and research for newer/alternative technologies. But before that you need a very clear testing plan and how it meets our day to day driving style. For example in Bangalore a car more or less idles or moves at low speed below 20 kmph for about 80% of its life time on road but the same in Ooty it will be doing hard climbs at 30-40 kmph or providing engine braking at 20 kmph and in some other town it will be mostly zipping at 60-70kmph. I guess we can device 10-15 odd scenarios on testing and put the car through various scenarios. The rating for the car in each scenario must be provided. The final rating of the car must be given for each city/RTO based on how much the scenario is faced in the city/RTO(weighted average). That will bring down fuel consumption overall in the country. If you want to make it a bit more clear, also consider providing more than one rating(say three, economy type, normal and throttle to the metal type) one for each style of driving.
	() Thanks

19th July 2008, 16:14	#20
snaronikar Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Bengaluru Posts: 2,845 Thanked: 29 Times View My Garage	Govt is doing something finally against the great fuel guzzlers. If this comes into effect, then it will be a boon for all auto buyers. But the question is when & how? Last edited by snaronikar : 19th July 2008 at 16:18.
	() Thanks

19th July 2008, 17:32	#21
yzfrj BHPian Join Date: May 2008 Location: who cares Posts: 787 Thanked: 142 Times	Its not the Car or the engine or the manufacturer that is the problem. Its not the driver. The problem is the system and the level or corruption we have in our country. Remember the helmet laws ? And helmet selling like hotcakes at 2,3 time the normal price. Who suffered ? Us the people. Does anyone care, if you fall ? If they really do why the roads looks like dirt tracks ? New laws ? for what new innovative ways to make money from the people. If the government is really serious about the FE and environmental issues. Why is the only electric car (Reva) is still visible only around Bangalore and costs more that the M800 ? Why is the Civic Hybrid costing twice its petrol cousin ? Mileage control, huh ? First fix the potholes at least then think about fixing the FE.
	() Thanks

19th July 2008, 17:52	#22
anjan_c2007 Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: India Posts: 8,335 Thanked: 20,656 Times View My Garage	The fuel economy standards for cars are ready. By the end of this year, the government will implement voluntary labelling of cars and by 2011-12, the fuel efficiency norms will be made mandatory for all passenger vehicles — any car that fails will not be allowed on the road after the cut-off date. The government hopes that by imposing the standards, consumers will be able to make a more informed decision while buying a car besides resulting in savings of 5-15 million tonnes of oil from the passenger vehicle segment by 2030. What to say of policy makers who go by car length (< 4000mm) and engine size (<1200cc petrol and < 1500cc diesel) to define small cars? Will they be able to arrive at logical solutions without any technical background?
	() Thanks

27th November 2009, 20:03	#25
aaggoswami Senior - BHPian Join Date: May 2007 Location: Vadodara Posts: 4,982 Thanked: 2,931 Times	I fail to understand that why cant we atleast attempt to solve an issue from the base. 1) Driver indiscipline and license being given to non deserving candidates. What eventually happens ? They drive badly on roads and in a combined way, they bring indiscipline, improper parking on roads. This leads to more traffic jams which waste fuel. This reduces efficiency by a good margin in city. Can we act on this ? 2) Bad roads. This is very well documented and people know about it. If this is solved, then FE will go up. Is this being done ? 3) Fuel quality and quantity. We all know that is an important factor. Bad fuel is not good for any car and leads to lower efficiency. What is done about this ? And there are thieves omni present that try their best to cheat customer by giving less fuel. In general, India is a very FE centric market from begenning thanks to lot of taxes ( we borrowed british system that britishers build for slaves, remember ? ) on each litre of fuel. So each car before being launched is detuned for higher FE and this is done by almost all major manufacturers. The reason why M13 never made into swift is this. It was heavier unit and also larger. Manufacturers do tune their car for higher FE as compared to the models sold in developed markets. Is this not enough. And what is real usage of this ? On an open road if I floor any car, its going to use more fuel. Cars today are sufficiently engineered to offer good FE and this depends a lot on how you drive and driving conditions. This is just a new norm by ministers for wrong purpose IMHO.
	() Thanks

27th November 2009, 23:23	#26
.anshuman Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Good-Gaon Posts: 7,763 Thanked: 11,064 Times View My Garage	I feel its good for envoirnment, cars should be taxed according to how much they pollute. The Co2 per km and FE display should be made mandatory in every advertisement related to any specific automobile.
	() Thanks

28th November 2009, 13:34	#27
rm_arjuna BHPian Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Hyderabad Posts: 468 Thanked: 149 Times	IMO FE standard would reflect more on the auto company's ,since they have to upgrade from the current set-up which also means they cannot thrust sub-standard products on us and also it is a step in the right direction towards conserving fossil fuel . Just to draw synergies ,Consumer products have started adopting BEE Star rating reflecting energy saving .Now we have become more aware on the product efficiency and are willing to pay the little premium considering long-term cost benefits . We are also aware of the acute power situation in peak months does that stop us from buying a better product. Primarily we dont have the political will to stem the ROT in the system and it is classic case of Chicken or Hen Story
	() Thanks

28th November 2009, 13:39	#28
somu_john BHPian Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: delhi Posts: 124 Thanked: 14 Times	all scrap, just another medium for rtos to increase their wealth. But it is a good thought if implemented properly and efficiently.
	() Thanks

28th November 2009, 13:44	#29
Shan2nu Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Hubli - Karnata Posts: 5,533 Thanked: 125 Times View My Garage	Firstly, do they mean fuel efficiency or fuel economy? Coz performance engines are pretty efficient at utilizing their fuel. And if they mean fuel economy, how do they decide on a particular figure? Will that figure be for city or highway conditions? Shan2nu
	() Thanks

28th November 2009, 15:50	#30
Raccoon Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Poona Posts: 1,851 Thanked: 116 Times	I'd agree with aaggoswami. While the emission norms are welcome, you can't neglect the other factors contributing to pollution. Adulterated fuel, bad roads, badly designed roads, etc., contribute hugely to pollution. Just emphasizing on one factor and not doing much for the other big factors is lop sided. These factors need urgent redressal. But by far the biggest problem is the population problem. No matter how strngent the emission norms, if there are more people with more cars, it will all be nullified.
	() Thanks