[amitk26]

Originally Posted by Gansan

So where does snobbery come in? That was what rankled a bit!

The snobbery was not directed at you in person , I am sorry if you misunderstood it that way . This originated from comments on rising income levels and aspirational value of people upgrading from 2 wheelers will not be fulfilled by anything less then Alto.

My simple point was Alto , Santro , M-800 or Nano are just cars, Just becuase something comes cheap does not mean people will not buy that.
People were buying more Alto instead of M-800 because Maruti forced movement by stopping the engine and gearbox option.

Still I do not understand how Alto, Maruti-800 or any other small car is any fuller car then Nano.

If we remove nano and it's price point form the equation and just consider Maruti cars then does anyone say Alto is not a full car and Swift is actually a Car , Ditto for Swift Desire and SX4.
They are all complete car with a certain feature set and price

I hope you got my point from last para.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by Daewood

When a guy who owns a 2 wheeler and wants to upgrade to a car, but has only enough money to buy the cheapest available one in the market, he would also like the car to be

1. A car that looks and feels like any other car and doesn't look like an AutoRickshaw with doors.

A-ha now I get you a little bit , Looks are subjective , Original Santro and current Wagon -R also look like auto to me but they were huge hits.

Originally Posted by Daewood

2. A car which does the occasonal highway trip @ 100kph speeds and feel stable.

See the travelogues section of T-BHP Sam-kapsi who got his hands on an early nano drove from mumbai to delhi in a decent time and drove above 100 as well seeing the timings.

Originally Posted by Daewood

3. A car which he will flaunt as his own at an extended family get-together.

well if I have a nano today and I own it I can definitely flaunt it.
My relative got the first one in her city and is a proud owner.
A lady in my office used to park it in front parking and was cynocyre for many days.
I don't think driving a VFM car is something to be ashamed of.

Originally Posted by Daewood

4. A car which gives 15+ mileage.

Doesn't nano gives that much or even more ?

Originally Posted by Daewood

5. A car which is reliable with no major hassles.

Today only the Alto satisfies all this and it has to the benchmark which Nano or any other car should try to surpass if it truly wants to be the "Hero Honda cd100" among 4-wheelers.

Well Alto gives almost everything but not definitely point 3 and 5 .
I have seen enough hassles in alto ( my sister owns it) also it comes at price way above nano.

Also apart from 4 burnt nanos I have not seen any major hassel reports either , But then what my cousins Omni went up in flame in hot summer the culprit was wiring.

[Gansan]

@Daewood & amitk26

The nano satisfies most of that except on these counts - the exhaust note that is a big turn off, a non-openable boot and the reliability which is yet to be proven. I am sure it will prove reliable in the long run, but the autorikshaw like exhaust is a real big turn off. It feels almost like a car, but not quite, on that count alone.

[Daewood]

Originally Posted by amitk26

See the travelogues section of T-BHP Sam-kapsi who got his hands on an early nano drove from mumbai to delhi in a decent time and drove above 100 as well seeing the timings.

That means stressing the car to its extremes.
According to Tata the maximum speed possible in a Nano is 105kph.
It was indicated in test drives by Auto mags that the car felt jittery after 60kph

Originally Posted by amitk26

well if I have a nano today and I own it I can definitely flaunt it.

Yes, you will. I said the same in an earlier post.
People who own a bigger or better car don't mind using it as a 2nd car.
For them it is like an Scooty or Activa which is used to run errands like going to the nearby store, etc

but for a first time car buyer it is different.
He woudn't buy even an Reva, eventhough it is a 5Lac car.
For him the conventional looks matter a lot.

Originally Posted by amitk26

Doesn't nano gives that much or even more ?

Well a car which gives 2kpl extra mileage is not a deal maker.
It has to be a substantial improvement like how HeroHonda raised the bar to 80KPL when others were giving 35KPL

Originally Posted by amitk26

I have seen enough hassles in alto ( my sister owns it) also it comes at price way above nano.
Also apart from 4 burnt nanos I have not seen any major hassel reports either

Generally Alto or the 800 are perceived to be hassle free.
Lakhs of owners woundn't have bought it if it wasn't true.
Tata cars are generally known to be expensive to maintain in the long run.

Yes, Alto costs more. But India has changed so much more in the last decade. We don't have any takers for mopeds or B/W Tvs anymore.
IMO Tata has released a car which would have been a huge hit if it had been launched 10 years back.

It is too early to write about Nano's achievement.
25 years after 800 was launched and when people are writing its epitaph
they still call it as the "car that put India on wheels"
If Nano sells more than any other car after 5 or 10 years, we can say that Nano has taken that crown from Maruti

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by Daewood

That means stressing the car to its extremes.
According to Tata the maximum speed possible in a Nano is 105kph.
It was indicated in test drives by Auto mags that the car felt jittery after 60kph

Well Sir taking a M-800 above 80 is also pushing it to extreme, The car shakes like crazy , I do not really know why it is OK to do it in M-800 but not in a nano. At least nano is crash tested.

I am not saying it is OK to do above 100 in nano but I feel more or less it is same.

Originally Posted by Daewood

Yes, you will. I said the same in an earlier post.
People who own a bigger or better car don't mind using it as a 2nd car.
For them it is like an Scooty or Activa which is used to run errands like going to the nearby store, etc

but for a first time car buyer it is different.
He woudn't buy even an Reva, eventhough it is a 5Lac car.
For him the conventional looks matter a lot.

Well I would say it is lot personal , Anyway nano is advertised as cheap car so it is imperative that image conscious will keep away but how many people give up VFM for image.


But is it not same about watch , shoes , belt or any other thing we have both mass market and little snob brands ? Well this thing is there in all the price brackets.

For Swift and Vista there are Fabia and i20 which are more pricey. For Indigo Manza there is SX4 and City. Same goes for Safari it was called poor mans pajero back in 1998. Today there is Captiva , Explorer, Pajero and Fortuner so does it mean I should feel shabby in VFM scorpio or safari ?


I don't see that Alto or M-800 is any better image wise but each to his own.

About reva it is a status symbol of eco-conscious indeed, Only rich can afford to own it and I have seen well healed in Bangalore owning it.

Originally Posted by Daewood

Well a car which gives 2kpl extra mileage is not a deal maker.
It has to be a substantial improvement like how HeroHonda raised the bar to 80KPL when others were giving 35KPL

And you expect that in same price range , If there was a splendor offering 80 kmpl at the same time there was a max offering 60kmpl but at lower pricepoint and it sold quite well as well.

Originally Posted by Daewood

Generally Alto or the 800 are perceived to be hassle free.
Lakhs of owners woundn't have bought it if it wasn't true.
Tata cars are generally known to be expensive to maintain in the long run.

I do own a Maruti-800 believe me or not no car is hassle free especially M-800 and Alto you will have one or the other issue like suspension bush gone , Steering column making sound , Alternator bearings busted, front disks getting scratched , Drive shaft making kut kut noise on full turn.

I am keeping my Safari under lens for minor issues because it is under warranty if we check M-800 or alto with same fine toothed comb our salaries will go to garage owners fully.

I am not saying Maruti parts are exorbitantly priced like Skoda but relative to the price of the car they are not cheap either.
In last 2 years Maruti has raised labour charges like anything.

They charged me 11 K for suspension bush kit replacement approx 5k for parts and same amount in labor + tax.

[Gansan]

@amitk26

Daewood has a point there. I would not like to have a car that goes "phut...phut...phuttt", not if it is my only car. It is not only me, many others in my circle felt so. A few people I know who have actually bought the nano, have it as their 2nd or 3rd car, like a Reva.

But we are talking about the urban market here. It may be different in rural areas.

And oh, the Alto feels perfectly fine and smooth at 105 KPH! I have not yet taken it beyond that.

[airbender]

Will Tata Nano overtaking Maruti 800 in number of units sold have an impact on maruti or the Indian car scenario?

Yes It will. It's good that people are getting richer in india but there are millions of people who still can't afford a car. For them this will matter a lot. Nissan-Ranualt-Bajaj Auto are a proof for this. Also once Diesel Nano is launched, it has to be seen if it will impact Alto. Even if Alto sales come down by 25 % I would say Nano has a big impact on Maruti. Alto+Wagon R+M80 consists of 40% of Maruti's sales. That's 40% sales from cheap segment.

Originally Posted by Daewood

1. A car that looks and feels like any other car and doesn't look like an AutoRickshaw with doors.
2. A car which does the occasonal highway trip @ 100kph speeds and feel stable.
3. A car which he will flaunt as his own at an extended family get-together.
4. A car which gives 15+ mileage.
5. A car which is reliable with no major hassles.

Today only the Alto satisfies all this and it has to the benchmark which Nano or any other car should try to surpass if it truly wants to be the "Hero Honda cd100" among 4-wheelers.

Why do you think Alto satisfies all the above. Some feel no hatchback is a complete car. Alto is only a glorified M800. Alto does not feel stable or safe at @100KPH. Wagon R looks like dumpster.

Nano is already a big winner. When Nano was launched in 2008, some members on this forum supported M800 to withstand Nano. Now that M800 is almost killed, focus shifts to Alto.

Why is it that Suzuki's are liked only in India. Not even in Japan(Suzuki's home market). Early mover advantage and Cheap.

[greenhorn]

I've hit 140 (indicated) in an m800 ( not sure about the speedo error). the car did feel nervous. but only because we were flat out. I dont think it felt unstable at all.

[Delta Wing]

This thread is getting curiouser and curiouser (sorry, watched the wonderland movie recently) for views on image, money, first-second cars, car niggles, speed n stability etc.
Nano is a pathbreaking effort by Tata not only in India but globally as well. Everyone in the world is hooked to the little 1 L car and boy, did it stun us by not looking like an 'auto' with 4 wheels instead of 3. Taking the debate to the other side, what would the Nano do to the Bajaj Auto on 3 wheels, eh? I wonder what Mr. Rahul Bajaj would say about the Nano, hehe.
My further 2 cents: You had to have good money or a well paying stable job to have a 4 wheeler till the Nano. With the Nano mania over in a year or two from now, I guess I'll see lesser no. of couples juggling a small infant on a bike in peak traffic (who otherwise woudn't have 2+ L for a car). I'll also see more older retired people crouching at the steering wheel of a 4 wheeler in the markets (who wouldn't dare drive a 2 wheeler).
This image thingy had come up when the market got M1000 and Esteem followed by the car mayhem of the 90's. Otherwise, the M-800 never had to contend with it (since in its early days, there was no one else) as much as the Nano does today. The game is different now and Maruti (or Suzuki or anyone else) better not brush it off lightly. Maruti were given liberal space to play in by the govt at the cost of many a competition, that's not so anymore. The Indica story is proof to what Tata can do in India and Nano will go a step further.
The epoch maker M-800 is dying and what befitting successor than the sterling, prodigal little Nano?

[MotoKris]

Do you guys just want to go on like this cribbing about Suzuki's unsafe cars and Nano's non-car like stuff?

Guys, Nano is a path breaking product of 2009 in India for the world.

Suzuki Alto of 1984 or even the later models for the next 10 years (our Maruti 800 & Maruti Alto) were almost revolutionary products of their age for the low cost, efficiency and reliability.

How can we compare the Quality levels of Honda City 1997 to the Honda City 2009? Isn't the new City far better? Isn't it much safer too?

Hyundai's were known as breakdown agents when they went to the America's two decades back. Now they are very good.

Tata Indica & Tata Indica Vista. 10 Years. A Sea Change.

And how can we compare the a 15 year old Alto design that is made to be almost the cheapest car with bare minimum design to that of the New Tata Nano that is pathbreaking and is raging to become a world car? And then some even want to get in the 30 year old Omni design here.

There are too many factors that determine price & quality of a car. People here are discussing petty stuff. Maruti Suzuki's cars have been the most reliable VFM things on wheels that our roads have seen. Everything else has been expensive or un-attractive or not as reliable. They will continue their legacy. Tata's have been groundbreaking with their cars. They too will continue their legacy.

Please understand that if a car is crash tested (and) it doesn't become safe. Some Citroen's and Renault's have 5 Star NCAP rating. Are they as safe as the Merc's that too have 5 Star rating?

My take (at least, no one can pull my leg for this section ):
Tremendous respect for the Nano for what it has shown to the world of engineers. Hats off and bows to Mr Ratan Tata.

But the rear seat is just like that of an Auto. Doesn't give a car feel.
My 100cc bike has a better exhaust note than the Nano's. It feels like Tata Ace or an Auto with more bass. I think we can't help a 2 cylinder engine sound like a 3 or 4 pot motor.

The Nano needs more time to come of age. Till then, I would spend my 1.5 lakh on a used Alto than on a Nano. Eagerly awaiting an electric Nano under 1.5L.
----------

Mr Suzuki is only degrading his dignity by passing on useless comments on the Nano from time to time. It is time he keeps shut or launch the Cervo between 1.5 & 2L and show to the world what they are capable of.
----------

For those citing that Suzuki had a monopoly for almost 15 years, they are forgetting the fact that HM & Fiat had a much much larger monopoly. But the fact is that they failed to remain competetive and Maruti Suzuki did. Even after this huge influx, after getting threatened twice off their market share, they still hold over 50% market share. That comes from a commited service.

Who doesn't have problems? But only the one who stands by with a commited effort reaps the benefit. This doesn't apply just to Maruti Suzuki, it even applies to Tata Motors, M&M.

[Daewood]

Originally Posted by airbender

It's good that people are getting richer in india but there are millions of people who still can't afford a car. For them this will matter a lot.

There are millions of people in India who don't own a 2wheeler. But they dream of owning one in future. When they graduate from a bicycle to a motorised 2 wheeler the next logical step should be a moped or anything that is around 20k.

But that is not happening anymore, like it happened in the 80s.
People are leaping to the next segment. i.e 100cc motorcycles.
The reason is India is growing at an unbelievably fast pace and the growth is fuelled by a population which is the youngest among all countries.
(55% of Indians are below 25yrs) This young population is so confident
and raring to go that they don't want anything less.

Don't believe me. Ask anyone who is wanting to graduate from 2 wheeler to a car and what car has he set his eyes on?
Defnitley it will be an Alto or anything above that in 9/10 cases.
For him even a 3rd hand Alto or Santro at 1.2 L will do, but not a Nano.

A neighbourhood uncle's son who is just 1 year into a job after college, is looking for car. Infact it is the first vehicle in their home. They don't own even a 2wheeler. His budget is 4 L. You know what he is looking out for? a used C-segment sedan This young population is what will drive India's car industry.

Originally Posted by Delta Wing

The epoch maker M-800 is dying and what befitting successor than the sterling, prodigal little Nano?

I feel it cannot be replaced, as not only that car but that segment itself is dying.

There is no point trying to be a market leader in CRT Tvs when what the consumer wants is newer and cheaper Flat panel TVs.

[CARDEEP]

Well Suzuki can make a car which could be cheaper than the existing 800. But, still i would be costlier than the Nano.

However, they are not doing so as it would adversely affect the expected profit from the car/ product line.

For instance - In the case of 1.3 G-series engine which was earlier used in Esteem, Swift & Versa the price of the car was minimum Rs.4 lacs. However, when they plonked the modified G-series, i.e. 1.2L 75 bhp in the Eeco. The price was reduced to around Rs.2.75 lacs. It is not that they are not making profits on the Eeco, but the margins are much lower this time around.

Plus, they need to have a new model in light of the latest (European) safety norms which they are seeking to avoid at this point of time. After all they are not in a strong position elsewhere.

Tata did the Nano to gain market share which can drive their cars business in India & elsewhere. Don't we know about the failure of Cityrover? In my opinion they sensed a business opportunity & acted upon the same.

So it is mere about strategy & profit-margins of the manufacturer.

[airbender]

Originally Posted by Daewood

There are millions of people in India who don't own a 2wheeler. But they dream of owning one in future. When they graduate from a bicycle to a motorised 2 wheeler the next logical step should be a moped or anything that is around 20k.

Originally Posted by Daewood

But that is not happening anymore, like it happened in the 80s.
People are leaping to the next segment. i.e 100cc motorcycles.
The reason is India is growing at an unbelievably fast pace and the growth is fuelled by a population which is the youngest among all countries.
(55% of Indians are below 25yrs) This young population is so confident
and raring to go that they don't want anything less.

Don't believe me. Ask anyone who is wanting to graduate from 2 wheeler to a car and what car has he set his eyes on?
Defnitley it will be an Alto or anything above that in 9/10 cases.
For him even a 3rd hand Alto or Santro at 1.2 L will do, but not a Nano.

A neighbourhood uncle's son who is just 1 year into a job after college, is looking for car. Infact it is the first vehicle in their home. They don't own even a 2wheeler. His budget is 4 L. You know what he is looking out for? a used C-segment sedan This young population is what will drive India's car industry.

Looks like we have another Osamu Suzuki on the forum. Now that Nano is a reality you argue there will be no market for that product. Mr.Carlos Ghosn thinks other wise. Do you want to say those 2 lakh people who actually applied for the car(with out a test drive) are dummies and not real. In the case you mentioned his budget is 4L. But there are millions of people who cannot afford 4L. How many percent of Indians own a car(in a country with 55% younger than 25)? Compare that with a developed country like US or one in Europe. Like it or not our country still has the largest number of poor people. Would you want to say they don't deserve to be served. Ever heard of Bottom of Pyramid economics. Are companies serving them insignificat. People operating in these segment work with very low profits. Not many people have the guts to operate here. Serving the Bottom of Pyramid is one of the best ways to reduce poverty. Go look at all the initial ownership reports, all the nano owners are young(may not be poor). They are just as proud as you and me about their car. They have also not reported any problems with their cars.


How much has the poverty level decreased from the time Maruti 800 was launched to now? First time M800 customers later upgraded themselves to other Maruti vehicles. THat will sure happen with Tata also.

It's only in India that small hatchnacks rule. Average buying car price in India is much less than in US. Markets in US are slowly moving towards hybrids and fuel calls which we do not have in India. Small hatchnacks are considered cheap in USA. A person with your atitude in US would feel indian auto sales are insignificant for the world.

What car you like or would like to own or own is a personal choice. That does not mean you can deride cars below your segment. If you are not happy with someone not as rich as you sharing the road with you then keep it to yoursefl.


Hero Honda is trying to do a Nano in the Motorcycles segment. I do not have any link to prove that but will get you one when I find it(I read it in economic times more than once).


By the way I don't own a Nano or am I in the prospective buyer segment for the future. It's not just the Fat Wallets who deserve the goodies.


There is no point trying to be a market leader in CRT Tvs when what the consumer wants is newer and cheaper Flat panel TVs.

If I look through your lens, Suzuki is insignificant bcoz they only sell cheap vehicles. They have no advanced tech like Fuel cells and hydrid. Not even a mild hybrid which a much smaller company like mahindra is offering.


Defnitley it will be an Alto or anything above that in 9/10 cases.

Caluclate the EMI one pays for a Nano and Alto on the loans offered by SBI, you will know the answer.

MODS: Please delete my other similar post.

[airbender]

Originally Posted by Daewood

There are millions of people in India who don't own a 2wheeler. But they dream of owning one in future. When they graduate from a bicycle to a motorised 2 wheeler the next logical step should be a moped or anything that is around 20k.

Originally Posted by Daewood

But that is not happening anymore, like it happened in the 80s.
People are leaping to the next segment. i.e 100cc motorcycles.
The reason is India is growing at an unbelievably fast pace and the growth is fuelled by a population which is the youngest among all countries.
(55% of Indians are below 25yrs) This young population is so confident
and raring to go that they don't want anything less.

Don't believe me. Ask anyone who is wanting to graduate from 2 wheeler to a car and what car has he set his eyes on?
Defnitley it will be an Alto or anything above that in 9/10 cases.
For him even a 3rd hand Alto or Santro at 1.2 L will do, but not a Nano.

A neighbourhood uncle's son who is just 1 year into a job after college, is looking for car. Infact it is the first vehicle in their home. They don't own even a 2wheeler. His budget is 4 L. You know what he is looking out for? a used C-segment sedan This young population is what will drive India's car industry.

Looks like we have another Osamu Suzuki on the forum. Now that Nano is a reality you argue there will be no market for that product. Mr.Carlos Ghosn thinks other wise. Do you want to say those 2 lakh people who actually applied for the car(with out a test drive) are dummies and not real. In the case you mentioned his budget is 4L. But there are millions of people who cannot afford 4L. How many percent of Indians own a car(in a country with 55% younger than 25)? Compare that with a developed country like US or one in Europe. Like it or not our country still has the largest number of poor people. Would you want to say they don't deserve to be served. Ever heard of Bottom of Pyramid economics. Are companies serving them insignificat. People operating in these segment work with very low profits. Not many people have the guts to operate here. Serving the Bottom of Pyramid is one of the best ways to reduce poverty. Go look at all the initial ownership reports, all the nano owners are young(may not be poor). They are just as proud as you and me about their car. They have also not reported any problems with their cars.


How much has the poverty level decreased from the time Maruti 800 was launched to now? First time M800 customers later upgraded themselves to other Maruti vehicles. THat will sure happen with Tata also.

It's only in India that small hatchnacks rule. Average buying car price in India is much less than in US. Markets in US are slowly moving towards hybrids and fuel calls which we do not have in India. Small hatchnacks are considered cheap in USA. A person with your atitude in US would feel indian auto sales are insignificant for the world.

What car you like or would like to own or own is a personal choice. That does not mean you can deride cars below your segment. If you are not happy with someone not as rich as you sharing the road with you then keep it to yoursefl.


Hero Honda is trying to do a Nano in the Motorcycles segment. I do not have any link to prove that but will get you one when I find it(I read it in economic times more than once).


By the way I don't own a Nano or am I in the prospective buyer segment for the future. It's not just the Fat Wallets who deserve the goodies.


There is no point trying to be a market leader in CRT Tvs when what the consumer wants is newer and cheaper Flat panel TVs.

If I look through your lens, Suzuki is insignificant bcoz they only sell cheap vehicles. They have no advanced tech like Fuel cells and hydrid. Not even a mild hybrid which a much smaller company like mahindra is offering.


Defnitley it will be an Alto or anything above that in 9/10 cases.

Caluclate the EMI one pays for a Nano and Alto on the loans offered by SBI, you will know the answer.

[amitk26]

Ok so here is the summery of key statements and my thoughts on them till now.

1. Car can not be built in 1 lakh ( OSAMU Suzuki)

Proved wrong , Car Delivered at ex-factory price of 1 lakh.

2. It will be a tetra-cycle , will it have doors and roof ( Osamu Suzuki)

Again proved wrong a proper 4 door car with more internal space then any of the Suzuki Kei cars launched in Indian market.

3. the engine is of lawn mower class ( Same Mr. Suzuki and many others)

Again this may be true for U.S.A but in his home country japan there are many K cars with 600 ~ 700 CC engines with less power at much higher cost . A plain malicious lie churned out to western audiences.

4. Will it be safe will it have Air bags and ABS ( Osamu Suzuki)

Again a malacious lie conveniently hiding the fact that none of the vehicles from his own company in India even at 4 times the cost have Air bags and ABS.

5. We will not build because it is not safe to build ( Osamu Suzuki)

Malicious lie hiding the fact that many of his cars are not even crash tested and lack basic safety feature. They will not build because they can not.

6. Is there a market , Will people buy ( Posters on T-BHP)

Surely there should be that's why 2 lakh people applied for it. Even if it is not there it is tata's headache not a consumers headache to think if others are buying it or not. If I like it I will buy if someone else buys it or not is not my problem.

7. Is it safe 4 nanos caught fire. ( Posters on T-BHP on other threads)

Probably yes, 4 caught fire but approx other 3-4 thousand being delivered every month are doing fine. We do not know what exactly caused fire.
Yes it will affect the image and future sales as an image of Car burning is more powerful then a story about stuck accelerator or failed brakes.