Team-BHP - FIAT Linea T-Jet: 1.4L Turbo Petrol. EDIT: Now launched

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abhi_Automobile (Post 2000363)

:OT Sorry, for being slightly off topic!

AFAIK, in layman terms, MultiAir is the more advanced version of Variable Valve Timing , right?

i certainly do not expect it (MutiAir Turbo) to be on the Indian roads anytime soon.

Do you think that detuning the engine (Indian version) will have any affect on the car's performance? BTW, Have you driven the 120 bhp car in Europe? Do you think it is match for ANHC in terms of performance?

Having developed after market tuning items for the T-Jets I had to drive them and was not impressed. I find it rather sluggish.

I would preferred to have seen the 1.6 turbo Diesel, which is quicker and returns better FE.

The Multi Air is new to the European market. Might be that they want to test the waters first here in Europe. One of the problems with Multi Air is that it needs a specific grade of oil. If this is not adhered to then the Multi Air hydraulics will fail.

@ Challa - The T-Jet is a 1368 FIRE with turbo charger. The 1.6 engine was never turboed and is an engine that eventually will be withdrawn from all markets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CPH (Post 2000203)

1) Tuning box is a no no on this engine. Only re-mapping is advisable. The block can take 400bhp, 360bhp has been done for endurance racing and some tuners offer packages up to 280bhp.

2) With the fitted turbo with air intake revision and re-map in excess of 150bhp can be achieved, with the turbo form the 150 T-Jet about 190bhp is possible and with the the SS turbo about 220bhp with induction revision is possible with 355Nm of torque (I have done all three).

The Brazilian version uses the slightly bigger IHI.

Being a performance tuner I doubt that the reduction in power has got anything to do with fuel quality. It looks more likely to be a FE issues.

3) The new T-Jets in Europe are 135bhp, but employ multi air technology. It looks like the T-Jet in India at the launch will be the twin cam version.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuboid (Post 1999714)

4) Would 10 BHP (110 vs 120) really matter? I think the crux here is 200Nm torque, and that too at 2500 rpm. Bang! Awesome low-end drive, and with the petrol engine refinement. and superb high end too. God! Till the VW TSI comes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidindica (Post 2000476)

5) One thing keeps on worrying me: how will be the so called service centers handle such complicated technology (from Indian standards) while servicing the car? Attitude in general is below par, that tata days notwithstanding, in general, its going to be an uphill task for fiat to make this car succeed. GDI maintenance is not that easy as it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CPH (Post 2001748)

6) Having developed after market tuning items for the T-Jets I had to drive them and was not impressed. I find it rather sluggish.

I would preferred to have seen the 1.6 turbo Diesel, which is quicker and returns better FE.

7) The Multi Air is new to the European market. Might be that they want to test the waters first here in Europe. One of the problems with Multi Air is that it needs a specific grade of oil. If this is not adhered to then the Multi Air hydraulics will fail.

8) @ Challa - The T-Jet is a 1368 FIRE with turbo charger. The 1.6 engine was never turboed and is an engine that eventually will be withdrawn from all markets.

1) 400bhp ? Then I am sure this is one of the best engine blocks around. Extracting 400bhp from 1368 cc means 292 bhp/ltr. Even the Evo series from Mitsubishi manages 190-200 bhp/ltr. from 2.0 ltr.

Why detune T-Jet so much for India ?

2) Thanks for the information. I think that 120-130 bhp would have made the car super quick in the league of Civic/Altis class.

3) Except the grade of oil, IMO Multiair should be here now. Honda has always brought in the latest evolution of their variable valve timings. Agreed that MultiAir is more complex, but a strategic long term plan would have helped.

4) Exactly, it would be high torque + good power spread through out the power band. Very smart and end results will be good after looking at the TSI in VWs.

In fact, Honda had earlier admitted that the technology of turbo in petrol motors is something they are lagging behind. Looks like turbo in petrol motors give good flexibility and Linea T-Jet will have all the torque it needs. Finally a car that can beat G3HC ( hopefully ).

5) This is what I meant by strategic long term plan. If Fiat had its own network for sales and service, I am sure Fiat could have trained the staff better. The current situation might be acting as a hindrance for bringing in more technology.

6) I expected the diesel to come in too. Again thanks for the information about the EU spec T-Jets.

7) To the best of my knowledge Multiair is very good technology that can even allow multiple valve opening. The overall gains are a noticable improvement in FE and overall performance. IIRC, even the amount of intake air is controlled. Except the grade of oil, there is no issues ( if we ignore the service network ).

IMO, the overall performance of Multiair is good enough to take risk and bring in the MultiAir tech to India.

8) Thanks for info., again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aaggoswami (Post 2001772)

1) I love to work with the FIRE engines because they are well designed engines. Quite a few cars have been modified in excess of 280bhp by tuners all over Europe (mainly in the 500). The 695 edition has got over 200bhp from factory. The Romeo Ferraris endurance racer has got 360 in the 500 chassis, which was a totally reworked chassis to take the power.

3) Cam shaft technology is known for over 140 years. The effect on them with different oils under different ambient conditions are known. Multi Air is still a new technology. The concept was originally limited to Italy. It is not a proven concept yet. We will get the new 2 cylinder Muti air in September, which will replace the 1.1, 1.2 and 1.4 8v FIRE. It will be step by step extended to the entire range of engines including the Diesel engines. Schaeffer and Fiat have got to lose a lot, which they can compensate for when gradually switching engines model by model and market by market.

4) The torque output of 200Nm is nothing to bragg about in a chassis as heavy as the Punto and Linea.

7) You are right, Multi air does allow for a lot. But works only on intake unlike the VEW system, which works on exhaust too. The beauty of of Multi air is that both inlet valves can be controlled independently, which means one valve can be closed while the other is operated (helping low down torque and FE), can be operated with offset (helping torque) or have any required opening angle for FE or torque.

Problem Fiat has got is that its reputation is not brilliant in India. Having failing Mult air engines wouldn't help the situation. The oil application is critical because the hydraulic of the Multi Air will cease in many cases and people will hold Fiat responsible even if the wrong oil causes the failure.

Once the Multi Air is proven in different markets it will come to India. By then the system might be developed to a level that it can take quite some abuse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CPH (Post 2001802)

1) I love to work with the FIRE engines because they are well designed engines. Quite a few cars have been modified in excess of 280bhp by tuners all over Europe (mainly in the 500). The 695 edition has got over 200bhp from factory. The Romeo Ferraris endurance racer has got 360 in the 500 chassis, which was a totally reworked chassis to take the power.

3) Cam shaft technology is known for over 140 years. The effect on them with different oils under different ambient conditions are known. Multi Air is still a new technology. The concept was originally limited to Italy. It is not a proven concept yet. We will get the new 2 cylinder Muti air in September, which will replace the 1.1, 1.2 and 1.4 8v FIRE. It will be step by step extended to the entire range of engines including the Diesel engines. Schaeffer and Fiat have got to lose a lot, which they can compensate for when gradually switching engines model by model and market by market.

7) You are right, Multi air does allow for a lot. But works only on intake unlike the VEW system, which works on exhaust too. The beauty of of Multi air is that both inlet valves can be controlled independently, which means one valve can be closed while the other is operated (helping low down torque and FE), can be operated with offset (helping torque) or have any required opening angle for FE or torque.

Excellent information.:thumbs up

Quote:

Originally Posted by CPH (Post 2001802)

Problem Fiat has got is that its reputation is not brilliant in India. Having failing Mult air engines wouldn't help the situation. The oil application is critical because the hydraulic of the Multi Air will cease in many cases and people will hold Fiat responsible even if the wrong oil causes the failure.

Once the Multi Air is proven in different markets it will come to India. By then the system might be developed to a level that it can take quite some abuse

+1000. Agree with you.
I remember reading that Tata-Fiat service center ended up putting in diesel engine oil in petrol linea ( or vice-versa not sure but it happened ).

Quote:

Originally Posted by CPH (Post 2001802)

4) The torque output of 200Nm is nothing to bragg about in a chassis as heavy as the Punto and Linea.

4) SX4 is 1210 kg with 14.8 kgm of torque. Linea petrol is 1240 kg with 11.7 kgm of torque. Linea diesel is 1290 kg with 20.7 kgm of torque. Linea diesel has got good drive ability.

Secondly, apart from how much, its also matter of where the torque is produced. High torque from around 2.5K rpm will help Linea IMO. And the added power in the top end means high speed cruising would be now much easier.

But I am yet to actually drive the T-Jet.