[Jeroen]

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Originally Posted by 1100D

For all the special European driving pleasures Volkswagens offer. Which Volkswagen has a rear wheel drive layout?

Well, the original Beetle springs to mind. In fact as far as I know every Volkswagen before they started the K70 had rear wheeel drive.


M3/M5's are not bought by true car lovers?

No. They are not. See my earlier reply.

Originally Posted by azeemhafiz

That's an interesting take. I have driven the AMGs, the Ms and the RSs while abroad and in India and i remember them to be fantastic drivers machine owned and maintained by what I believe to be true car lovers. May be the definition of car lovers are different in your case, but I am willing to bet that there are other members out here who'd believe that the M, AMG and RS are true drivers machine desired by a lot of 'True' car lovers. Please don't take this personally, but may be you could elaborate some other examples of practical 4 door cars that are desirable for 'True' car lovers by your definition.

Getting back to the topic - Judging by the recent surge, most statisticians would predict Audi to take helms at the top of the table soon.

Best,

Azeem

Two things:

One:
Practicality can never and should never be a criteria for a true car lover.
Two:
Statistics on number of cars can never and should never be a criteria for a true car lover either.

Jeroen

[azeemhafiz]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Two things:

One:
Practicality can never and should never be a criteria for a true car lover.
Two:
Statistics on number of cars can never and should never be a criteria for a true car lover either.

Jeroen

May be we should take this offline, as this is not the right place to discuss - but the Ms are not designed keeping 'practicality' in mind - It just happens to be. Even the Ferrari 458 Italia is practical over the old Ferraris, but that was not the core reason for building the 458.

The 535/530 d from BMW and the FF from Ferraris are the practical ones.

But just because some cars are fantastic machines and they happen to be practical, does not mean that they are not great machines that cannot be admired by 'True' car lovers. But lets agree to disagree.

Thanks,

Azeem

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

In most of Western Europe you don't want to be associated with BMW drivers.
Anything in a 3-series or less is a sales rep on its way to sell the next copier. Anything upwards of a 3 series is likely to be driven by a banker that just bankrupted the nation or a drug dealer.

But even there, Mercedes are just for fat old gits. BMW's are bought by fat old gits who pretend to be twenty years younger than they really are. Audi's are bought by fat old gits who are extremely boring.

Top Gear much?

I know, you've got sufficient evidence to back it up, in all probability. But aren't fat-old-gits - whether or not they pretend to be 20 years younger / boring - allowed to be enthusiasts or 'car-lovers'. Some of them aren't. But I'm sure there is a substantial number of them who are as well.

I'm not talking about enthusiasts who track their cars or who are walking-talking-encyclopedias. I'm talking about people who like the badge. People who have a bias towards these cars and for what they offer relative to the competition.

Some would prefer a Mercedes over a BMW just because his grandfather has a soft-spot for it. And this soft-spot rubbed off on the person buying it.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Whilst living in the US I noticed that no matter what car you drove as long as it was European and not American, people thought it was special. Americans thought/think the Volkswagen Jetta was/is pretty neat for crying out load.

That's because the Jetta is actually a great car! It does everything you want it to, and then some, and it makes German anality available to those who can't get something more expensive.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

No offense, but I think none of these cars are ever bought by true car lovers. All of them, no exception, are first and foremost show off cars. Like; I'm the CEO of the company I'm expected to drive a Mercedes/BMW.

True. In a way.

It IS a status thing. But you also say that the general perception, the stigma attached to it - if you will - makes the prestige thing redundant? I'm not sure if it's wise to stereotype drivers / owners of particular cars.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

True car lovers never buy a car to show off, and they certainly never buy for convenience.

Most certainly not!

What about those who buy cars from BMW's M-Division, or Merc's AMG division? What about fun cars like the Focus RS, or the VW Golf GTI? Or the Mini Cooper? They are 'true car lovers' in the logical sense, but they would like some practicality as well. Not everyone can afford a 5 car garage where they can prioritize one car for performance and another purely for practical purposes.

If you study the European market carefully, you'd realize that the average car-nut, who also happens to be a family man, buys something like a Mercedes E63 AMG Estate / Station-Wagon.

In fact, Audi has discontinued the RS4 Worldwide and replaced it with the RS5, EXCEPT in certain Euro markets, where they continue to sell the RS4 ONLY in 'Avant' (Estate) trim.

That certainly says something, doesn't it?

Originally Posted by Jeroen

The last thing a true car lover would be interested in is whether a particular brand sells more units than a other brand.

Not necessarily again.

A true-car lover might evaluate his needs, his priorities and his conditions so that he makes an informed decision. Due to financial constraints / after-sales worries - if any - he might go in for something sensible, yet something that might suit him.

There are cars for every one these days.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Two things:

One:
Practicality can never and should never be a criteria for a true car lover.
Two:
Statistics on number of cars can never and should never be a criteria for a true car lover either.

Jeroen

See above.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Interesting thread;

Anything in a 3-series or less is a sales rep on its way to sell the next copier. Anything upwards of a 3 series is likely to be driven by a banker that just bankrupted the nation or a drug dealer.

In the Netherlands Mercedes are strictly driven by:
- taxi drivers
- small business people
- builders / contractors

But in general anybody in Europe that drives a BMW, Audi or a Mercedes is likely to do so at the expense of somebody else. eg. company/lease car.

Whilst living in the US I noticed that no matter what car you drove as long as it was European and not American, people thought it was special. Americans thought/think the Volkswagen Jetta was/is pretty neat for crying out load.

But even there, Mercedes are just for fat old gits. BMW's are bought by fat old gits who pretend to be twenty years younger than they really are. Audi's are bought by fat old gits who are extremely boring.

No offense, but I think none of these cars are ever bought by true car lovers. All of them, no exception, are first and foremost show off cars. Like; I'm the CEO of the company I'm expected to drive a Mercedes/BMW.

Or they are convenient in terms of comfortable, functionality (e.g. the whole family can fit in), or the company lease budget allows for it.

True car lovers never buy a car to show off, and they certainly never buy for convenience.

The last thing a true car lover would be interested in is whether a particular brand sells more units than a other brand.

Jeroen

Whoo I love this post. Shades of Jeremy Clarkson coming through loud and clear!

However all said and done I love certain cars because of their versatility and utility value and all things considered the car I think I love most in all the world is the Mini Cooper S.

Having said this, I would buy a car to own and use as a daily driver based on the former criterion and would rent a car when I am on holiday, based on the latter!

Living in India there's not much choice really.

Had I lived in the UK, Oz or NZ and been a well off ish bloke, I would have bought that Mini Cooper S for sure, for me, myself and I, along with an LR Freelander or VW Tiguan or Audi Q3 for golf and general outings with the doggies etc.

All just pipe dreams I guess...

[volkman10]

Mercedes India takes the Third place in 2012. BMW and Audi wrestle for the first spot.
Mercedes total car sales for the 2012 calendar year stood at 7,138 units.

Audi and BMW are fighting for the top spot in the luxury car segment in India. Both of them, are yet to reveal their yearly sales figure for 2012. For Jan to Oct 2012 period, BMW India sold 7,389 cars while Audi India is sold 7,267 units, behind by just 122 units.

http://www.rushlane.com/mercedes-ben...e-1257423.html

[Karan1981]

Originally Posted by volkman10

Mercedes India takes the Third place in 2012. BMW and Audi wrestle for the first spot.
Mercedes total car sales for the 2012 calendar year stood at 7,138 units.

Audi and BMW are fighting for the top spot in the luxury car segment in India. Both of them, are yet to reveal their yearly sales figure for 2012. For Jan to Oct 2012 period, BMW India sold 7,389 cars while Audi India is sold 7,267 units, behind by just 122 units.

http://www.rushlane.com/mercedes-ben...e-1257423.html

Mercedes made more money in that case then as their profit percentages is a lot more than the other two ..

[volkman10]

Audi India takes top spot for 2012, as revealed in their FB.

Audi India's update on Facebook reads, "2012 really was the year when we seized the day, 366 times; and raced towards the position of the No. 1 Luxury Car Brand in India. Thank you Audi fans for your love and support. Here's wishing you a wonderful year ahead!"

http://www.rushlane.com/audi-india-t...2-1257440.html

[rrsteer]

Is it possible to know how does the sales figures of A6 compare with those of the E & 5 series and how does A8 compare with the S & 7 series. Personally, I haven't seen those many A6's & A8s as compared to their counterparts. I am just guessing but I think 5 series still sells more than the E & A6 and S class more than the 7 & A8. And that to me would matter more than absolute numbers.

[johnjacob]

Originally Posted by Karan1981

Mercedes made more money in that case then as their profit percentages is a lot more than the other two ..

Not necessarily. BMW and Audi figures are for Jan-Oct only. So BMW and Audi both sold more cars in Jan-Oct than Mercedes did in the whole year. Once we have the yearly figures then we could estimate who made more profits.

It is reasonable to extrapolate that BMW and Audi both sold twenty percent more cars in 2012 than Mercedes did. I don't think Mercedes has a profit margin that is twenty percent more than BMW or Audi.

[neoonwheels]

Originally Posted by rrsteer

Is it possible to know how does the sales figures of A6 compare with those of the E & 5 series and how does A8 compare with the S & 7 series. Personally, I haven't seen those many A6's & A8s as compared to their counterparts. I am just guessing but I think 5 series still sells more than the E & A6 and S class more than the 7 & A8. And that to me would matter more than absolute numbers.

I guess most of Audi's sales is from the Q siblings, followed by A4. Have spotted so many Qs in Pune in last year.

[Jeroen]

But everybody is entitled to his/her opinion and I dish out mine all the time. I never let it be cluttered by something like facts. You can not argue over facts, so why bother.

Life is all about opinions. Whenever somebody says: let's look at the facts you can be sure that:
- the person in question is an incredible bore
- the person in question is going to use his/her perception of the facts to vent his/her opinion.

This thread is good example. If BMW sells more cars in India than Mercedes the only fact is that numerically speaking BMW number of cars sold is higher than Mercedes. For some, it appears, this also implies BMW makes better cars. That's not a fact, it might be wishful thinking, it might be an opinion, it might even be true, but it is not a fact.

Jeroen

[nirmaljusdoit]

How can one assume from among the three, which manufacturer makes the most profits ? They dont share any financial information yet about their Indian operations ! I also doubt whether the model wise breakdown is being shared anywhere by them also or is available in the public domain.

The good thing is that more intense competition brings about better service for us ! Here atleast in Blore Audi service is excellent (will shortly be reaching max capacity) followed by BMW (Navnit is bursting at the seams, unable to manage the load) Sundaram (Merc) overloaded & dont care attitude and Akshaya (Who ever appointed them dealers )

Coming to the generalizations below, did not quite understand them !!
Does it mean that one who drives a 3 series is always a salesman & 5/7 series a drug dealer ? Where does that leave those who drive a Lexus then ? It was my understanding that a person who values driving dynamics and wants something more than A to B transportation would choose a 3 - series !
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anything in a 3-series or less is a sales rep on its way to sell the next copier. Anything upwards of a 3 series is likely to be driven by a banker that just bankrupted the nation or a drug dealer.

In the Netherlands Mercedes are strictly driven by:
- taxi drivers
- small business people
- builders / contractors

But in general anybody in Europe that drives a BMW, Audi or a Mercedes is likely to do so at the expense of somebody else. eg. company/lease car.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[diffsoft]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Life is all about opinions. Whenever somebody says: let's look at the facts you can be sure that:
- the person in question is an incredible bore
- the person in question is going to use his/her perception of the facts to vent his/her opinion.

Jeroen

Liked your opinion on facts! How often have we met people who wrap their opinion with tons of useless facts!

It also dawned on me why many find me such a bore; and that's not an opinion but a revelation.

Cheers,

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by diffsoft

It also dawned on me why many find me such a bore; and that's not an opinion but a revelation.

Cheers,

My pleasure: enjoy life to the fullest, more opinion, less facts!

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by nirmaljusdoit

Where does that leave those who drive a Lexus then ?

Good question! Not an easy answer, as Lexus drivers have been notoriously difficult to categorize. Broadly speaking I see two kinds of Lexus drivers.

Those who need a car to get from A to B and they don't want too small a car either. The whole family needs to fit in comfortably. They are totally oblivious of brands, specification etc. My own dad used to be like that. The last three cars he bought were all Audi's. For one reasons only, the Audi dealer happened to be just around the corner from where we lived. He could not be bothered to go anywhere else for something as mundane as buying a car. When you would ask him what car he drove he would say; I think it's green. He honestly did not know anything else about his own car. It just did not hold his interest. Many Lexus drivers are like this. A car is just a functional item. You buy it as part of the Saturday shopping. E.g. two cartons of milk, one loaf a bread, orange juice, dozen eggs and one car.

I do suspect however that there are some Lexus owners out there who would consider themselves true car connoisseur. You could argue about style and performance, but these cars are an engineers wet dream.

A couple of years ago, a good friend of mine bought a Lexus. He was a real car nut, so I was somewhat surprised to say the least. Not sure about the model, I tend to fall asleep when looking at Lexus sales brochures. Still, my friend insisted I come over and have a look at his new Lexus. He also bought the official Lexus workshop manual. We spent numerous hours pouring over all the technical details of this car. I tell you, compared to how Lexus puts their car together, the engineers of Mercedes/BMW/Audi are just a bunch of silly amateurs. We're not even discussing what I think of Jaguar Engineers in general let alone how they compare to Lexus.

The level of engineering design that goes into a Lexus is unbelievable. Being an engineer myself I do appreciate that. I have bought cars in the past based purely on how they were put together as well. Here's a car that you can actually take apart to fix something and put all the parts back again. It will all fit perfect. You try and replace a door card on your average modern car and you will begin to appreciate the Lexus.

Anyway, so there are Lexus owners out there that don't give a rats *** about convention and or badge. And just buy a Lexus because from an engineering point of view it's a stonking good car. I for one, can appreciate that. Anybody that behaves highly individually and autonomously gets my vote any day.

Jeroen