Explained! TSD (Time-Speed-Distance) Rallying

bblost · 5th October 2015, 21:52

Fantastic thread. Thanks Sudev this clarified a lot of doubts I had about the TSD format.

My one and only experience with this was during the http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ge-2012-a.html

I had no idea when we set out just how much fun and excitement is possible in a "slow" race.
I was simply stunned when I saw the winner of that contest having almost 0 time difference.

sudev · 6th October 2015, 07:34

Events

Before you say it is difficult to participate in events so far away let me share that events are happening all over.

Few of the biggest events that happen in TSD format are as follows:
• Desert Storm - Delhi
• Raid De Himalaya - Shimla
• SJOBA Rally - Chandigarh
• Taj Rally - Agra
• Royal Rajasthan - Jaipur
• Kaviguru Rally - Kolkata
• Mahindra Adventure - Nashik
• Dakshin Dare - Bangluru
• Rally of Jeypore
• Rally of Coimbatore
• Green Run - Bangluru
• Monsoon Run - Kolkata
• Grand Krishna - Chikmanglur
• Orange Adventure - Chikmanglur
• Malwa TSD - Indore
• Drive to Cause - Kolkata
• Silver Spring - Kolkata
• Spirit of Kalinga - Bhubaneswar
• Indo Bhutan - Siliguri
• Himalayan Drive - Guwahati

There is also a six to nine round national championship conducted by Federation of Motor Sports Clubs of India (FMSCI) every year. There are many more one day or half day events with concentration around Kolkata, Bangalore, Coimbatore and Chennai.

There are also special events with all women crew or women drivers only. Lavasa rally is one of the most glamorous one with high profile celebrity attendance.

sudev · 7th October 2015, 14:13

Passage Controls

Passage controls or check points are different than Time controls mentioned earlier. They are placed so as to ensure that the competitors are on the correct route. Passage controls are marked with standard symbols and are difficult to miss (unlike Time controls).

Each control is manned by marshals or volunteers. While marshals have prior rally experience, volunteers without the experience are trained for the rally. The training not only covers recording time, but also includes first aid assistance, wireless communications etc.

Here is a picture of a passage control:

Explained! TSD (Time-Speed-Distance) Rallying-image004.jpg

Image Source: Just Sportz

palitrana · 7th October 2015, 16:05

Brilliant Thread Sudev! Rally driving is just as you said - for real men on real roads, and thats why it seems all the more alluring. The sad part - not much information for the average car enthusiast - now gets solved.

What do you think would be a good start for a newbie from Mumbai? Isnt Mahindra Adventure more about off-roading and need some experience with it (off roading)?

sudev · 7th October 2015, 16:51

Mahindra does both. For off road - 4w vehicle guys - they do Challenges and for two wheel vehicle owners Adventures and Drives.

That would be one place to start with. Though Goa, Pune also have events.

sudev · 9th October 2015, 12:59

The Marshals

Marshals are different breed of motoring enthusiasts altogether. They play an essential role in running of any rally (for that matter all motor sports) and perform vital function of timing at controls. They also ensure tracking and the safety of participants (even in a TSD Rally):

Explained! TSD (Time-Speed-Distance) Rallying-dscn4081-medium.jpg

Marshalling is tough job but enjoyable as well. Marshals are up and travelling before the rally starts and go to sleep much after it's over. Check out some of the accounts written by marshals themselves:

Desert Storm Travels

Storm'11 - The Marshall's Life

The Mughal Rally - A Marshal's account

sudev · 9th October 2015, 18:15

The Winning Strategy

Given that you have to come up with the least amount of penalties, the only guaranteed way of winning a TSD rally is to remain on time all throughout the course.

Many devices are available and are used by the Navigator to do constant calculations throughout the rally. He/she has to calculate their current location and the time at which they should have reached their current location. After this, he/she has to compare that with the ideal time of arrival. The difference in between these two is then used by the team to understand how fast or slow they should be going to maintain the ideal situation. This way, they do not get surprised at a time control since they would be always running on time.

However, to calculate correctly you also need to know the correct distance reading (odo). As mentioned earlier as well, many devices are available but the dictum in a rally is that the road book is always the Bible and cannot be wrong. So even if a GPS device is being used by the competitor, they still need to keep noting the error in the GPS reading with the road book and keep correcting themselves for this difference in the distance.

One of the easiest ways of noting and correcting the difference is to check the distance reading on your device from a constant point. Calculate the distance of your position from a constant (non-varying) point on your device and the same distance on the road book. The difference between these two would give you the error (between the device and road book). While choosing a constant point on the map, you have to be careful as well. Say for instance, a cross road in comparison to a curve on the road - there is no doubt that the cross road can be an exact point, but a curve can vary and you cannot have an exact reading of the distance. In addition, there are other indicators that can give you a very precise idea of distance reading for instance, a milestone or a building.

This constant calculation takes its toll on the navigator who also has to guide the driver onto the correct route. Thus, good teamwork between the driver and the navigator is extremely essential to keep a good progress. Of course, practice and persistent approach is basic to make winners.

sudev · 18th February 2016, 08:18

For people in Delhi NCR a new monthly TSD series of drives is being run see details here http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...on-drives.html

sudev · 29th February 2016, 08:32

Another edition of Race Camp TSD Rally training program is scheduled for Sunday March 13, 2016. Those interested can sign up at RACE CAMP

r_nairtvm · 18th July 2016, 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by sudev

Another edition of Race Camp TSD Rally training program is scheduled for Sunday March 13, 2016. Those interested can sign up at RACE CAMP

Sudev,

Nice thread and well explained the concept of TSD. Simple explanations and all.

Just chanced up on this.

Best Regards & Drive Safe

Ram

guyfawkes · 4th March 2018, 21:08

@Sudev, thanks for the detailed post explaining TSD and your earlier experience with Desert Storm.

I am participating in Desert Storm - Xplore category this year with my co driver. I am prepping up my 2WD Duster (Petrol) for the TSD event. As you have mentioned about the uncertainty of car's odometer and evolving complexity of the calculations across the different stages of the event, I wanted to check on the following info for the event:

- Would you suggest roping in a 3rd individual in the car who could be an experienced TSD navigator only? As my co-driver is not experienced in TSD, wanted to explore that option as well.
- Should I go ahead and buy a different odometer and any other gauges which should help in TSD clocking?
- Any other tips if you can provide before we roll in the Desert Storm starting March 17, 2018, would be a valuable input.

Also, before going in the rally, I am planning for the following:
Must have:
- Change of Air Filter, Fuel Filter, Engine Oil, Coolant, Brake oil
- Brake pad check

Optional
- Sump Guard
- Fuel Tank Guard
- Special GPS/Odometer

Appreciate your revert in this regard - VS

sudev · 12th March 2018, 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by guyfawkes

@Sudev, thanks for the detailed post explaining TSD and your earlier experience with Desert Storm.

Welcome to madness !!

Quote:

Would you suggest roping in a 3rd individual in the car who could be an experienced TSD navigator only? As my co-driver is not experienced in TSD, wanted to explore that option as well.

Absolutely your choice. Can be task saver by one guy looking at navigation and one just doing time calculations. Though with use of RallyGDP app with bluetooth connected to second device showing driver the second screen thi can be better done.

Quote:

Should I go ahead and buy a different odometer and any other gauges which should help in TSD clocking?

Definitely needed. Again buying odometer connected to wheels versus odometer on GPS ... pros and cons must be weighed. Simpler to use GPS odometer and keep back up reading with car odo for those areas where GPS signals are actively jammed. (Pokharan???)

Quote:

Any other tips if you can provide before we roll in the Desert Storm starting March 17, 2018, would be a valuable input.

Had a wonderful session with fourteen people yesterday whole day just discussing this rally.

Quote:

- Change of Air Filter, Fuel Filter, Engine Oil, Coolant, Brake oil
- Brake pad check

Optional
- Sump Guard
- Fuel Tank Guard
- Special GPS/Odometer

Apart from change carry extra air filters and I'd recommend change them daily.

Air compressor to re-inflate tyres. Deflate them when expected to go through significantly sandy route. Normally 1/3rd reduction in air pressure is rule of thumb need.

Guards are always good addition but remember they also lower your ground clearance.

Will add a comment about sand driving soon.

sudev · 12th March 2018, 07:16

Here is a presentation I have made about a wonderful app called RallyGDP.

It was developed by late Gaurav D Patel (hence GDP) and is one of the best apps to help compete in TSD rally.

The app also has comprehensive help written in. Just spend time in reading and running simulation rally - also built in to app - to make sure you understand.

My Presentation

guyfawkes · 12th March 2018, 14:55

Thank you so much Sudev for your valuable inputs. We have started exploring the app and hopefully shall be comfortable with it before the rally.

Look forward to your feedback on the sand driving as well before the rally kicks off.

sudev · 5th June 2018, 11:55

For those who may be interested in creating road books and organising rally's a working seminar is being planned. Read about it on https://www.facebook.com/sudev.barar...56684306860864

The interactive seminar will help equip potential organisers with better understanding and give learning of tools to be employed for making precise road books.

5th October 2015, 21:52	#16
bblost Team-BHP Support Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Hyderabad Posts: 11,008 Thanked: 15,366 Times View My Garage	Re: Explained! TSD (Time-Speed-Distance) Rallying Fantastic thread. Thanks Sudev this clarified a lot of doubts I had about the TSD format. My one and only experience with this was during the http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ge-2012-a.html I had no idea when we set out just how much fun and excitement is possible in a "slow" race. I was simply stunned when I saw the winner of that contest having almost 0 time difference.
	(1) Thanks

6th October 2015, 07:34	#17
sudev Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Gurgaon Posts: 3,838 Thanked: 3,179 Times	Events Before you say it is difficult to participate in events so far away let me share that events are happening all over. Few of the biggest events that happen in TSD format are as follows: • Desert Storm - Delhi • Raid De Himalaya - Shimla • SJOBA Rally - Chandigarh • Taj Rally - Agra • Royal Rajasthan - Jaipur • Kaviguru Rally - Kolkata • Mahindra Adventure - Nashik • Dakshin Dare - Bangluru • Rally of Jeypore • Rally of Coimbatore • Green Run - Bangluru • Monsoon Run - Kolkata • Grand Krishna - Chikmanglur • Orange Adventure - Chikmanglur • Malwa TSD - Indore • Drive to Cause - Kolkata • Silver Spring - Kolkata • Spirit of Kalinga - Bhubaneswar • Indo Bhutan - Siliguri • Himalayan Drive - Guwahati There is also a six to nine round national championship conducted by Federation of Motor Sports Clubs of India (FMSCI) every year. There are many more one day or half day events with concentration around Kolkata, Bangalore, Coimbatore and Chennai. There are also special events with all women crew or women drivers only. Lavasa rally is one of the most glamorous one with high profile celebrity attendance. Last edited by Omkar : 6th September 2017 at 18:13.
	(2) Thanks

7th October 2015, 14:13	#18
sudev Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Gurgaon Posts: 3,838 Thanked: 3,179 Times	Passage Controls Passage controls or check points are different than Time controls mentioned earlier. They are placed so as to ensure that the competitors are on the correct route. Passage controls are marked with standard symbols and are difficult to miss (unlike Time controls). Each control is manned by marshals or volunteers. While marshals have prior rally experience, volunteers without the experience are trained for the rally. The training not only covers recording time, but also includes first aid assistance, wireless communications etc. Here is a picture of a passage control: Image Source: Just Sportz Last edited by Omkar : 6th September 2017 at 15:12.
	(2) Thanks

7th October 2015, 16:05	#19
palitrana BHPian Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: mumbai Posts: 78 Thanked: 104 Times View My Garage	Re: Explained! TSD (Time-Speed-Distance) Rallying Brilliant Thread Sudev! Rally driving is just as you said - for real men on real roads, and thats why it seems all the more alluring. The sad part - not much information for the average car enthusiast - now gets solved. What do you think would be a good start for a newbie from Mumbai? Isnt Mahindra Adventure more about off-roading and need some experience with it (off roading)?
	(1) Thanks

7th October 2015, 16:51	#20
sudev Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Gurgaon Posts: 3,838 Thanked: 3,179 Times	Mahindra does both. For off road - 4w vehicle guys - they do Challenges and for two wheel vehicle owners Adventures and Drives. That would be one place to start with. Though Goa, Pune also have events.
	(2) Thanks

9th October 2015, 12:59	#21
sudev Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Gurgaon Posts: 3,838 Thanked: 3,179 Times	The Marshals Marshals are different breed of motoring enthusiasts altogether. They play an essential role in running of any rally (for that matter all motor sports) and perform vital function of timing at controls. They also ensure tracking and the safety of participants (even in a TSD Rally): Marshalling is tough job but enjoyable as well. Marshals are up and travelling before the rally starts and go to sleep much after it's over. Check out some of the accounts written by marshals themselves: Desert Storm Travels Storm'11 - The Marshall's Life The Mughal Rally - A Marshal's account Last edited by Omkar : 6th September 2017 at 15:35.
	(1) Thanks

9th October 2015, 18:15	#22
sudev Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Gurgaon Posts: 3,838 Thanked: 3,179 Times	The Winning Strategy Given that you have to come up with the least amount of penalties, the only guaranteed way of winning a TSD rally is to remain on time all throughout the course. Many devices are available and are used by the Navigator to do constant calculations throughout the rally. He/she has to calculate their current location and the time at which they should have reached their current location. After this, he/she has to compare that with the ideal time of arrival. The difference in between these two is then used by the team to understand how fast or slow they should be going to maintain the ideal situation. This way, they do not get surprised at a time control since they would be always running on time. However, to calculate correctly you also need to know the correct distance reading (odo). As mentioned earlier as well, many devices are available but the dictum in a rally is that the road book is always the Bible and cannot be wrong. So even if a GPS device is being used by the competitor, they still need to keep noting the error in the GPS reading with the road book and keep correcting themselves for this difference in the distance. One of the easiest ways of noting and correcting the difference is to check the distance reading on your device from a constant point. Calculate the distance of your position from a constant (non-varying) point on your device and the same distance on the road book. The difference between these two would give you the error (between the device and road book). While choosing a constant point on the map, you have to be careful as well. Say for instance, a cross road in comparison to a curve on the road - there is no doubt that the cross road can be an exact point, but a curve can vary and you cannot have an exact reading of the distance. In addition, there are other indicators that can give you a very precise idea of distance reading for instance, a milestone or a building. This constant calculation takes its toll on the navigator who also has to guide the driver onto the correct route. Thus, good teamwork between the driver and the navigator is extremely essential to keep a good progress. Of course, practice and persistent approach is basic to make winners. Last edited by Omkar : 6th September 2017 at 17:09.
	(1) Thanks

18th February 2016, 08:18	#23
sudev Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Gurgaon Posts: 3,838 Thanked: 3,179 Times	Re: Explained! TSD (Time-Speed-Distance) Rallying For people in Delhi NCR a new monthly TSD series of drives is being run see details here http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...on-drives.html
	(1) Thanks

29th February 2016, 08:32	#24
sudev Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Gurgaon Posts: 3,838 Thanked: 3,179 Times	Re: Explained! TSD (Time-Speed-Distance) Rallying Another edition of Race Camp TSD Rally training program is scheduled for Sunday March 13, 2016. Those interested can sign up at RACE CAMP
	(1) Thanks

4th March 2018, 21:08	#26
guyfawkes Newbie Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: NEW DELHI Posts: 19 Thanked: 28 Times	Re: Explained! TSD (Time-Speed-Distance) Rallying @Sudev, thanks for the detailed post explaining TSD and your earlier experience with Desert Storm. I am participating in Desert Storm - Xplore category this year with my co driver. I am prepping up my 2WD Duster (Petrol) for the TSD event. As you have mentioned about the uncertainty of car's odometer and evolving complexity of the calculations across the different stages of the event, I wanted to check on the following info for the event: - Would you suggest roping in a 3rd individual in the car who could be an experienced TSD navigator only? As my co-driver is not experienced in TSD, wanted to explore that option as well. - Should I go ahead and buy a different odometer and any other gauges which should help in TSD clocking? - Any other tips if you can provide before we roll in the Desert Storm starting March 17, 2018, would be a valuable input. Also, before going in the rally, I am planning for the following: Must have: - Change of Air Filter, Fuel Filter, Engine Oil, Coolant, Brake oil - Brake pad check Optional - Sump Guard - Fuel Tank Guard - Special GPS/Odometer Appreciate your revert in this regard - VS
	() Thanks

12th March 2018, 07:16	#28
sudev Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Gurgaon Posts: 3,838 Thanked: 3,179 Times	Re: Explained! TSD (Time-Speed-Distance) Rallying Here is a presentation I have made about a wonderful app called RallyGDP. It was developed by late Gaurav D Patel (hence GDP) and is one of the best apps to help compete in TSD rally. The app also has comprehensive help written in. Just spend time in reading and running simulation rally - also built in to app - to make sure you understand. My Presentation Last edited by sudev : 12th March 2018 at 07:18.
	(2) Thanks

12th March 2018, 14:55	#29
guyfawkes Newbie Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: NEW DELHI Posts: 19 Thanked: 28 Times	Re: Explained! TSD (Time-Speed-Distance) Rallying Thank you so much Sudev for your valuable inputs. We have started exploring the app and hopefully shall be comfortable with it before the rally. Look forward to your feedback on the sand driving as well before the rally kicks off.
	() Thanks

5th June 2018, 11:55	#30
sudev Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Gurgaon Posts: 3,838 Thanked: 3,179 Times	Re: Explained! TSD (Time-Speed-Distance) Rallying For those who may be interested in creating road books and organising rally's a working seminar is being planned. Read about it on https://www.facebook.com/sudev.barar...56684306860864 The interactive seminar will help equip potential organisers with better understanding and give learning of tools to be employed for making precise road books.
	() Thanks