[ds.raikkonen]

Even with modern LED technology, the T.50 is typically Gordon Murray with black and white screens. The tacho graphics almost look kindle-ish, classy.

[Rehaan]

Holy smokes this is automotive history being made (again)!!

The only thing that pains my heart is that there's only going to be 100 made.

~70% of pre-bookings (GBP 50,000 if i remember correct) were made sight-unseen, based on just a ballpoint sketch that Murray did in 20 minutes years ago!

He himself was shocked at how many takers there were... which makes me thing he might have underestimated the demand.

Why do I wish there were more being made? Simply because I want to increase my chances of:
a) Seeing one
b) Being driven around in one
c) Driving one
d) Owning one


If you're interested, here are two must-watch/listen videos:

1) The part at 35 (or 45min) onward about the engine is pretty awesome:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT8PMXCMrsM

2) This whole interview is amazing, and gives you a hint at what an amazing professional life Murray has lead:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvFusDf30ds

[meta]

Originally Posted by Rehaan

~70% of pre-bookings (GBP 50,000 if i remember correct) were made sight-unseen, based on just a ballpoint sketch that Murray did in 20 minutes years ago!

£600,000, which is 25% of the price.

It also was non-refundable, mind you: there's no turning back.

[carthick1000]

Originally Posted by Rehaan

If you're interested, here are two must-watch/listen videos:

I think one more to add to this list is the top gear's version, where they bring a McLaren F1 to GMA plant and Mr. Murray explains about the various things which he improved on the T.50 compared to F1. Interesting watch, IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4EIYQ6fkG4

[ds.raikkonen]

Originally Posted by Rehaan

If you're interested, here are two must-watch/listen videos:

My favourite interview so far has been the one with Mike from Drivetribe. These guys make amazing automotive videos. Haven't seen the one by Chris Harris, another gem of a reviewer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVB9h9pGxEE

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Originally Posted by ds.raikkonen

Even with modern LED technology, the T.50 is typically Gordon Murray with black and white screens. The tacho graphics almost look kindle-ish, classy.

Originally Posted by carthick1000

I think one more to add to this list is the top gear's version, where they bring a McLaren F1 to GMA plant and Mr. Murray explains about the various things which he improved on the T.50 compared to F1. Interesting watch, IMO.

I was waiting for someone to post the Top Gear video. There's an absolutely fascinating story there about the Brabham fan car and how there's a nice call back to the dials on the new T.50.

The gist is this, back in the day Gordon got a Pitot tube, the kind you see poking out the nose of most commercial jets, and an altimeter dial of some sort to fit in the car. It would measure the pressure differential caused by the fan, because below a certain point, approaching a corner if there wasn't enough load on the diffuser, it would cause the car to spear straight off. Niki Lauda apparently spent the whole race glued to that dial to make sure he didn't go careering off into the barriers.

What's remarkable is just the widespread engineering knowledge of Gordon, it's staggering - he was jumping from engine technology to suspension stuff to aero, it's incredible.

[ds.raikkonen]

Originally Posted by ads11

What's remarkable is just the widespread engineering knowledge of Gordon, it's staggering - he was jumping from engine technology to suspension stuff to aero, it's incredible.

I think 2 gentlemen-Gordon Murray and Christian Von Koenigsegg are in a different league when it comes to making road cars. Their unique insights what is convention and what can be done with road cars is amazing.

Best thing about Gordon Murray is that he was never crazy about the top speed performance figures, but the 'emotional' aspect of a true sportscar. Which is why he made it a proper manual, not a dual clutch. And that amazing super-rev happy engine which can 12,100 rpm in just 0.3 sec!! He always wanted good response from the throttle for his customers, just like in the F1. Which is probably why he settled with a LFA-ish spec 3.9 L V12 with low inertia.

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Originally Posted by ds.raikkonen

I think 2 gentlemen-Gordon Murray and Christian Von Koenigsegg are in a different league when it comes to making road cars. Their unique insights what is convention and what can be done with road cars is amazing.

Best thing about Gordon Murray is that he was never crazy about the top speed performance figures, but the 'emotional' aspect of a true sportscar. Which is why he made it a proper manual, not a dual clutch. And that amazing super-rev happy engine which can 12,100 rpm in just 0.3 sec!! He always wanted good response from the throttle for his customers, just like in the F1. Which is probably why he settled with a LFA-ish spec 3.9 L V12 with low inertia.

Christian for sure is one of those guys but I felt it was cheeky of Gordon to not mention Horacio (Pagani) when talking about both the quality and jewel like feel of the interiors. If there's anyone who understands the intersection between exposed engineering and quality machining for interiors and has made it an art form it's Horacio. Plus the Huayra has the same active aero flaps too. I think what's clear is that in the ultra rarefied air that these vehicles and their creators operate in, they aren't encumbered by the bureaucracy of larger organisations (something Gordon does touch upon) and don't really have the fiscal constraints to limit their vision, they can essentially go all out towards their goal.

I'd be absolutely fascinated to hear Gordon's take on something like the Ford GT-40, the current iteration. It too was made by a small skunk works type team, and feels about the closest in spirit to the ideals Gordon espouses in a car, that comes from a major marque.

Oh and I'd love to see what he has to say about that all time classic of a screaming V-10 in the LFA. The fact it's spoken so highly of to this day by auto heavyweights is testament to the gold dust that rare beast had under its hood.

[ds.raikkonen]

Originally Posted by ads11

Christian for sure is one of those guys but I felt it was cheeky of Gordon to not mention Horacio (Pagani) when talking about both the quality and jewel like feel of the interiors. If there's anyone who understands the intersection between exposed engineering and quality machining for interiors and has made it an art form it's Horacio. Plus the Huayra has the same active aero flaps too.

I'd be absolutely fascinated to hear Gordon's take on something like the Ford GT-40, the current iteration. It too was made by a small skunk works type team, and feels about the closest in spirit to the ideals Gordon espouses in a car, that comes from a major marque.

You're right, I somehow missed the enigmatic Horacio Pagani's name along Koeniggsegg and Murray. The bespoke 7.3L N.A. V12 for the C12 Zonda and the 6.0 L twin turbo V12 in the Huayra, also with a proper manual gearbox, were in a similar league as the McLaren F1 and the T.50.

The Huayra is both an art piece and an engineering marvel. I can recall no other vehicle which can match that, not even the F1 and T.50. Only the Regera can come close to it.

[carthick1000]

Originally Posted by ds.raikkonen

I can recall no other vehicle which can match that, not even the F1 and T.50. Only the Regera can come close to it.

Originally Posted by ads11

I'd be absolutely fascinated to hear Gordon's take on something like the Ford GT-40, the current iteration. It too was made by a small skunk works type team, and feels about the closest in spirit to the ideals Gordon espouses in a car, that comes from a major marque.

Oh and I'd love to see what he has to say about that all time classic of a screaming V-10 in the LFA. The fact it's spoken so highly of to this day by auto heavyweights is testament to the gold dust that rare beast had under its hood.

With due to respect to all cars mentioned here, I think major point missed is the weight of all the supercars. Mr. Murray comes from the Colin Chapman school of lightweighting and he took it to a new level with T.50. There is simply no other modern supercar under the 1000kgs. I have not driven supercars, but with my limited experience of owning an MX-5 ND (950kg) and a Tesla Model 3 (1580kg), I can say this: Though Model 3 has extreme acceleration, but when it comes to corners, it is day and night difference of driving a nimble, agile, lightweight car through them. It is simple physics, period.

When I look at the specs of the above mentioned cars, they are all upwards of 1200kgs and LFA is the worst I think at 1600+ kgs. With heavier cars and a lot of power, the suspension systems have to be stiffened a lot and this makes the ride also uncomfortable at low speeds. In addition the footprint of most supercars is much greater than the T.50. No other supercar maker even bothered to beat Mclaren F1 in lightweighting until T.50. This is the market segment of proper (ultra rich) driving enthusiasts, who not only care about the fanciness of a supercar, but also it's lightweight driving ethos combined with a bit practicality. And well it has 3 seats too (Only Gemera has 4, but it is more than 1700kgs btw, but atleast is unique) for it's weight.

T.50 oozes Mr. Murray's enthusiasm for lightweighting, (Check out the cars he owns. All of them he owns are under 1000kg and only Suzuku Jimny is a bit heavier), driving pleasure and practicality and I am sure this car will be going down in history as a proper driver's supercar than the rest. As the designer puts it "The ultimate analogue supercar"

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Originally Posted by carthick1000

With due to respect to all cars mentioned here, I think major point missed is the weight of all the supercars. Mr. Murray comes from the Colin Chapman school of lightweighting

You're absolutely correct, he came up in the footsteps of the immense shadow left by Colin. You're right, there are few options out there I can think of that not only match the drama of something like the T50 but combine it's almost monastic devotion to lightness above all. The Valkyrie unfortunately is a shade over a ton, but I think the thing that most bothers Gordon about it would be it's lack of user friendliness and it's drastic styling.

Honestly I'm kinda struggling to think of something that fits the sub 1000kg bracket, one of my personal favourites the Vulcan is pushing 1350kg. I don't think you could fault that for being analogue. I'm not sure how likely it is you could get a decent lightweight under a 1000kg what with all the regulations you have these days. I lean naturally towards Japanese options like the MX-5 but I suppose even that has become too bloated for his liking today. Maybe a hot little Kei car.
Speaking of the Jimny, I would imagine the newest iteration would be right up his street. Unadulterated simple little 4x4 that it is.

May I ask where you found a link for his personal cars? I'd be absolutely fascinated to see. Honestly there's such rich material for a podcast just mining the thoughts of automotive luminaries like Gordon et al.

[carthick1000]

Originally Posted by ads11

May I ask where you found a link for his personal cars? I'd be absolutely fascinated to see. Honestly there's such rich material for a podcast just mining the thoughts of automotive luminaries like Gordon et al.

There are quite a few podcasts by motorsport magazine with Mr. Murray. Here is the link with his (partial) list of personal cars. I heard in one of the podcasts about his personal cars all being less than 1000kg, except for Jimny.

Fun fact: He used a smart roadster coupe for 13 years as his daily driver. That is a very light (810kg dry) rear-mid engine, rear wheel drive roadster with McPherson suspension at front and a very uncommon DeDion axle at the rear. If you are in UK, you can pick these up for quite a bargain. Though not very powerful, but definitely a lot of fun.

And if you are interested about lightweight and packaging, here is a nice video about how Mazda brought down the weight of ND MX-5 to the levels of NA (both around 950kg), whereas NC was 100kgs heavier:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMyoaICX5Fk

[ads11]

Originally Posted by carthick1000

There are quite a few podcasts by motorsport magazine with Mr. Murray. Here is the link with his (partial) list of personal cars. I heard in one of the podcasts about his personal cars all being less than 1000kg, except for Jimny.

Fun fact: He used a smart roadster coupe for 13 years as his daily driver. That is a very light (810kg dry) rear-mid engine, rear wheel drive roadster with McPherson suspension at front and a very uncommon DeDion axle at the rear. If you are in UK, you can pick these up for quite a bargain. Though not very powerful, but definitely a lot of fun.

And if you are interested about lightweight and packaging, here is a nice video about how Mazda brought down the weight of ND MX-5 to the levels of NA (both around 950kg), whereas NC was 100kgs heavier:

Ah thanks for these will have a listen!

I see the occasional Smart roadster around - it's a curious looking thing to put it charitably. I think this is the first time I've come across this DeDion axle.

I'm such a huge fan of Mazda ever since they basically brought about the Kodo design language. I always sing it's praises

[LOL_FWD]

Originally Posted by carthick1000

Not really... 1.5L Mazda MX-5 ND when launched was having a dry weight of about 950kg.I had a 2016 model. But now you cannot get that low weight anymore as the newer 2020 versions have bloated to 976kg dry weight. Also the first gen NA models too were about 950kg dry.

In the press release of T.50, you can see the dry weight is 957kg. So still a fantastic value for supercars, but can't agree fully with your claim of lighter than an MX-5

Guess I should've explicitly mentioned that the comparison was done with a 2020 MX5? Didn't think someone would consider an older model for this comparison and I assumed since the discussion was on a modern car, it was implied

[carthick1000]

Originally Posted by LOL_FWD

Guess I should've explicitly mentioned that the comparison was done with a 2020 MX5?

Guess so, as the claims were misleading. Would have been better and well researched, if the wording has 'lighter than some versions of MX5'.