[dragracer567]

A couple of questions we should have from this:

1) Which cars send our data back to their company? Do connected cars in India like Hyundai Venue, Kia Seltos, MG hector, Tata Nexon etc. do the same?

2) Under what conditions can governments and courts access the data? Do car companies have a policy? Does it makes the population more vulnerable to an authoritarian government or even democratic governments overreaching its powers?

3) MG is Chinese, so can the Chinese government access the data of Indian/European car buyers?

A lot of people pointed out that tech companies like Google and Facebook do the same but by now we have a rough idea as to how they respond to government and law enforcement requests but since connected car tech is quite new, we still don't know how it works.

My personal opinion is that there should be a fine line where tracking in cars could be allowed (with the owner's consent) for safety reasons but robust laws must be put in place. We need to weigh and out-weigh the risks.

Since there is a diversity of opinions regarding this, perhaps we should have a poll

Side note: This article from CNN claims that India is building the world's largest facial recognition database. If true, this would be a game-changer for tracking citizens (negative aspect) as well as effective law-enforcement (positive aspect).
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/10/17/t...hnk/index.html

[vik99]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

A couple of questions we should have from this:

1) Which cars send our data back to their company? Do connected cars in India like Hyundai Venue, Kia Seltos, MG hector, Tata Nexon etc. do the same?

2) Under what conditions can governments and courts access the data? Do car companies have a policy? Does it makes the population more vulnerable to an authoritarian government or even democratic governments overreaching its powers?

3) MG is Chinese, so can the Chinese government access the data of Indian/European car buyers?
...[/url]

1) If i may make an educated guess, it would be that all connected cars send some data to their companies. That is the whole point of buying a connected car. It is a double edged sword, there are benefits too, such as emergency assistance. You could read about the Venue's connected car features from the Team-BHP review page here (Hyundai Venue : Official Review). In fact you don't need an eSim in the car for emergency assistance, Ford's Emergency Assistance feature works using the phone paired to the car's ICE via Bluetooth. The issue here is how much data these cars send and for how log it is retained. Imagine malicious actors using data stolen from automobile companies to track movements of important Government functionaries! Also important is how upfront these companies are about their data gathering and retention policies with their customers. I am sure folks who own these connected cars would be able to add to this point of whether they got the Terms of Service for connected car services along with their vehicles.

2) How much access a Government has to the data collected by car companies, or any other company that collects data about it's customers as a byproduct (or otherwise) of its normal business operations depends on the jurisdiction of the Government on the company. In cases where the company in question is not a legally registered entity in India, the Law Enforcement Agencies/Govt. has to depend on other channels. These may be time consuming in natures (of course there are exceptions wherein the time period can be cut short). In case the company is registered in India it is a fairly straight forward process of serving the Company with an appropriate legal notice. Most companies have designated Nodal Officers to respond to such requests.

As for the second part of your question about the abuse of data by Governments authoritarian or otherwise, the past trends aren't particularly encouraging.

The Chinese Government has something called a Social Credit Score. Trustworthiness of individuals is decided based on their Social Credit Score which is calculated on the basis of all the data the the government and private companies collect, this includes CCTV footage, Social Media posts, legal history, online purchases etc. I am sure it will make for interesting reading - here

3) The thing with suspecting manufacturers belonging to a specific country alone is that we then tend to miss the larger point. Nations have always deployed all means as their disposal to keep an eye on other nations. This is not limited to a single country or a group of countries. The basic idea is that if their is data, there will be people looking to ex-filtrate that data to use it to their advantage. Even in the days when computers weren't around, espionage (whether nation state or industrial) was commonplace. The advent of computers and the information age has only added to the tools at the disposal these folks. As for Governments accessing data about citizens of other countries through automobile manufacturers, there is no denying of such a possibility. However, if proven, it will lead to severe backlash leading to significant loss of face for both the manufacturer and the country in question. Therefore, there is only a slim chance of such a thing ever coming to light. The real risk is when one nation state steals from another nation's data repositories and plants enough false footprints to avoid attribution to itself.

The (in)famous criminal Willie Sutton was once asked why he robbed banks, and his response was simple, eloquent, and humorous: Because that's where the money is. It is the same with data, most of these companies hoarding customer data do not actually operate the huge infrastructure required to store the data. That is done by other companies, often in the "Cloud", this is where the money is when it comes to the information age.

There are enough ways to track individuals without the cars being another source of data as it is. Almost every one carries a mobile on ones person at all times, this in itself is sufficient to locate a person, and also know of who he/she is in touch with. Now may people have smartphones, there are two main Operating Systems (software that runs these phones) - Google's Android and Apple's iOS. Both Android and iOS maintain quite a bit of information on individuals i.e., location history (how Apple does it) , call history, SMS history, Browsing history and a host of other information. This information is often backed up to the Cloud (iCloud for Apple iOS, Google Drive etc for Android). Add the various apps such as facebook, instagram, youtube etc to the mix and the amount of data each individual generates per day is unfathomable.

As for facial recognition, the vendor with the biggest repository of images ( a claimed 3 billion images, some of not most scraped off public websites such as facebook) reportedly suffered a breach recently - related report here. Willie Sutton wasn't wrong after all!

Interesting times!

[Enobarbus]

An extremely interesting thread. It began as an entertaining read and progressed into a very informative discussion.

Two things happened with me recently that are somewhat related to this discussion:

1. I booked movie tickets using book my show in a theater which I had not visited for years. I had booked the tickets one week prior to the show. I never searched google maps for the route to this theater or for the location of this theater. I know this theater very well. On the day of the show, we got into our Tata Nexon and connected the phone to the infotainment system and android auto. The moment the connection is established, google maps automatically loaded the route from my home to the theater. Are google services really at this level? Are they tracking at this level?

2. I booked an appointment with the dentist on my mobile phone using a simple phone call to the dentist. This is not the first time I am visiting the dentist. Here too, I never searched for the location of the dentist. But on the day of the appointment, google maps again automatically loaded the route to the dentist. Is google listening? Or is it simply tracking my movements and has somehow deduced that at this time, I am likely to travel to this particular location?

[svsantosh]

In mid 2012, a Tbhp'ian (fellow Bangalore'ian, Offroader, Cisco employee and a very young IT whiz kid) visited my home with some goodies to wish me and my wife on the birth of our son. I couldnt help but notice he had a 900Rs Nokia mobile phone in his hand. I happened to ask him why a techie like him having a phone like that. To which he explained the OP's post and the BBC article technology existed since early 2000's and he wasnt comfortable with all the snooping around going on.

His very own servers hosted stuff that can send shiver down your and my spines and it was a simple case of 'Chef's dont eat their own food'!!

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by Enobarbus

I booked movie tickets using book my show in a theater which I had not visited for years. I had booked the tickets one week prior to the show. I never searched google maps for the route to this theater or for the location of this theater. I know this theater very well. On the day of the show, we got into our Tata Nexon and connected the phone to the infotainment system and android auto. The moment the connection is established, google maps automatically loaded the route from my home to the theater. Are google services really at this level? Are they tracking at this level?

That's a feature google has had for a while I think. If the receipt for your flight tickets are sent to your gmail, google automatically logs it and sends you a notification when it's time to leave for the airport. It's there since atleast 2014 if I remember correctly.

[Enobarbus]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

That's a feature google has had for a while I think. If the receipt for your flight tickets are sent to your gmail, google automatically logs it and sends you a notification when it's time to leave for the airport. It's there since atleast 2014 if I remember correctly.

Thanks for the info. But about the second instance; do you think google is listening?

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by Enobarbus

Thanks for the info. But about the second instance; do you think google is listening?

I don't think Google will give you suggestions based on a phone call (that's illegal). Perhaps, it did so by tracking your previous movements as you said (still weird).

[Anduril]

Originally Posted by Enobarbus

do you think google is listening?

I've been wondering this too for quite sometime. Not only google but Alexa and other voice assistants too it seems.
Few days back, my mom and wife were discussing about sarees for some upcoming function and hours later that day, saree ads started popping up in my wife's phone (ad sections in diffrent apps). We were absolutely sure that none of them searched anything about saree in their phones...too convenient to be a coincidence.
In another instance, myself, wife and dad were discussing something about the recent Air-India sale tender (when it was announced) and after sometime dad started seeing generic recommended ads on how to submit a tender.

These are just few examples but we've been seeing these "coincidences" quite frequently these days.

[vik99]

This is quickly turning into a thread on privacy in the Digital Age. Well, there is barely any privacy left and going forward we are only going to lose whatever privacy we have left.

The reason for this can be attributed largely to our reliance on free services.

Think about this, when you buy a Desktop/Laptop you also buy a license of Windows, or it comes bundled with the computer. Ever bought a license for the Operating System running you phone?

A lot of us (and that includes me) use free email services, how do these guys pay for the huge infrastructure required to provide such services.

Youtube doesn't charge us for the videos we watch. Prime/Netflix does...ever noticed how minimal the advertising on Amazon Prime is, especially when compared to YouTube? This is the difference between a free service and something that you pay for.

In a free service, the service provider finds ways to ensure that his users can continue to enjoy the services he provides without having to pay a penny. Some services have a paid/premium version and also a free version. Most services resort to advertising to raise revenues.

Now plain vanilla advertising, wherein everyone gets shown the same advert. is passé. Simply because is isn't very effective, there is no point showing ad for the latest hot hatch to someone who doesn't drive, is there? Unlike TV, where there is no way to target advertising, the Internet/Apps etc do enable the entities looking to buy advertising slots to actually show the adverts to those who have a higher likelihood of actually needing the service being advertised.

So how do i as a automobile manufacturer show an advertisement to only those between 25 to 35 who don't own cars and earn over 6 lakhs per annum and also live in Metro/Tier I cities? There is no way traditional media outlets such as Print or TV could do that for me? I go to Google or Facebook (and perhaps others). Entities such as Google, Facebook and other have such detailed histories about individuals that such targeted advertising is not only possible, it is also fairly trivial to execute.

So each individual using these free services is actually a product that these advertising companies sell to the highest bidder while masquerading as Technology/Social Media companies. ‘If you’re not paying for it; you are the product’

In the race to outdo each other in enabling finer and finer targeting of advertising, these companies secretly listen to us speak, read our emails, record our locations including the routes taken, and a lot of other stuff which would be considered shady in the physical world but somehow manages to give us a slip in the virtual world...and it is not just Google or Facebook or Amazon that do it, just about everybody who is in possession of any kind of data is looking for ways to monetize it. Interesting article on how much data Google and Facebook have about individual users - here

A good place to understand what Google knows about you would be Google's My Activity page (https://myactivity.google.com/) or Google Dashboard (https://myaccount.google.com/dashboard).

So if you really find all this targeted advertising to be disconcerting, you need to do a cost-benefit analysis of whether moving away from such services is going to be worth it, if so, there is plenty of material available online (ironic isnt it?) to help minimize the amount of tracking that is possible.

At this point i think we should all thank the guys who run Team-BHP for this line in the page for advertising on Team-BHP - "Please note that Team-BHP does NOT permit any car advertisements. " This is truly commendable guys! Hat tip to you!

[vennarbank]

Originally Posted by Enobarbus

An extremely interesting thread. It began as an entertaining read and progressed into a very informative discussion.

Two things happened with me recently that are somewhat related to this discussion:

1. I booked movie tickets using book my show in a theater which I had not visited for years. I had booked the tickets one week prior to the show. I never searched google maps for the route to this theater or for the location of this theater. I know this theater very well. On the day of the show, we got into our Tata Nexon and connected the phone to the infotainment system and android auto. The moment the connection is established, google maps automatically loaded the route from my home to the theater. Are google services really at this level? Are they tracking at this level?

2. I booked an appointment with the dentist on my mobile phone using a simple phone call to the dentist. This is not the first time I am visiting the dentist. Here too, I never searched for the location of the dentist. But on the day of the appointment, google maps again automatically loaded the route to the dentist. Is google listening? Or is it simply tracking my movements and has somehow deduced that at this time, I am likely to travel to this particular location?

Mostly by reading SMSes and Emails. This has happened for me also. Once i removed access to SMS i did not get any more prompts.

[v1p3r]

A few points:
1. Unless explicitly turned off (there is an option), Gmail reads every email you get or send. This data is used for better targeted advertising.
2. India has virtually no data privacy.
3. Please rest assured that anytime you enter your phone number at a restaurant reservation counter, it's being resold.
4. All your IVR / call centre recordings are sold - that's how Google Assistant is trained.
5. Your PAN / KYC / Aadhaar data is with anyone who's ever used it for verification, and of course all these companies are funded by Chinese investors, which in turn are funded by the Chinese government and PLA Army. This was confirmed by a board member on one of these companies - 'Of course the Chinese have all your data, the owner doesn't care!'.
6. Aadhaar has constantly been hacked by Israeli / Chinese / Russian hackers. Your biometrics and biodata are floating around everywhere.
7. US privacy laws only cover US citizens. So the US govt can freely access your deepest online secrets unless you're a US citizen.
8. Any app that has mic access has it 24/7, at least until a few years ago. For example, if you talk about swords constantly near your smartphone, you will start seeing ads for it. This has been proven multiple times, and I've tried it as well.

I do give food delivery apps inbox access. It spurs competition - I'll see offers from Swiggy spike up when I've ordered Zomato for a few days.

Privacy is an illusion, doubly so in a country with no real laws to safeguard it. We have given up any control over our data for modern, tech-enabled, convenient and connected lives.

[Guite]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

8. Any app that has mic access has it 24/7, at least until a few years ago. For example, if you talk about swords constantly near your smartphone, you will start seeing ads for it. This has been proven multiple times, and I've tried it as well.

This point is very comforting; now at least someone is listening to me, LOL!

This thread has naturally veered to privacy issue. Few years back we used to have anti spyware installed on our PCs to stop applications from "calling home" because it was considered rogue behaviou then. Now most apps call home to provide "enhanced user experience", "diagnostic", etc. It has now become acceptable behaviour. Not to accept is to not use that gadget or app. Choice is limited. Now even cars are calling home and reporting its status.

[gjnnbagal]

Glad to see, that Land Rover Discovery help the police solve the case and successfully managed to advertise itself at zero cost.

One Hollywood movie ' Horrible bosses' has a similar plot of murder case and Car navigation system unveiling the truth in the end.

Bollywood movies have a famous dialogue " Kanoon ke hath bahot lambe hote hai" (means, Long arm of the Law)
Now one can say, 'Many arms of the Technology'
I hope Akshay Kumar reads TBHP forum, and we get to see his upcoming movie based on this murder mystery case at the end of this lock down or even this month end.

Speaking of Google tracking the browser history, there was a funny incidence of IRCTC twitter handle user, who was complaining on Twitter about inappropriate ads on IRCTC website. Later getting embarrassing justification.