2012 F1 - German Grand Prix

PAVAN KADAM · 22nd July 2012, 20:01

I somehow did not like the race today. Terrible coverage, worst ever commentary, and a bit boring.

Was that move from Vettel over Button Justified..?

Alonso is edging away towards the title for sure, he looks really comfortable to take the WDC this year.

mgh · 22nd July 2012, 20:14

Alonso is 34 points ahead of Webber and 36 of Vettel, who is 23 points ahead of Kimi.
McLaren are in third place, just one point ahead of Lotus.

FI are eighth, one point behind Williams, and thirty-two points behind Sauber, who are in sixth place. FI are doomed to eighth place, unless they unlock the secrets of the Pirellis in the remaining races. Force India had problems with Bridgestone tyres as well.

FI are incapable of gathering a bunch of points from races, unlike Williams and Sauber. Sauber have found out how to manage the Pirellis, and with the eccentric Maldonado, Williams will collect a bunch of points now and then.

Hulkenberg was forced into a 3 stop strategy, as he started losing too much pace. If FI had planned a three stop strategy to start with, he might have scored more points. Considering that they are unable to make the tyres last, they might as well plan for it. Their car seems to be fast enough to make the strategy work. In any case, they will not do worse.

aditya116 · 22nd July 2012, 21:18

vettel is penalised 20 secs for that move on button dropping him to 5 th.

rakirank · 22nd July 2012, 22:09

"vettel is penalised 20 secs for that move on button dropping him to 5 th."

I honestly don't see the sense in this. It was not one of those corners were there was an undue advantage to Vettel. It was not like he cut a corner.
He ensured that the cars did not touch. He actually said as much to Button before going to the podium.

Hatari · 22nd July 2012, 22:43

What a race! Mega drive by Fernando! What a driver! holding off Vettel and then Button all through without them even trying to sneak in was amazing.
Shame about Lewis.. Mclarens were real quick today after the upgrades they brought.
Sauber too have got it right in terms of race pace.

Vettel made a desperate move, clearly illegal. He went around the outside and took the wider line which was off the track. He should have given the place back and tried again.
Disappointing race for Webber too.. expected more from him

Hatari · 22nd July 2012, 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by rakirank

"vettel is penalised 20 secs for that move on button dropping him to 5 th."

I honestly don't see the sense in this. It was not one of those corners were there was an undue advantage to Vettel. It was not like he cut a corner.
He ensured that the cars did not touch. He actually said as much to Button before going to the podium.

Michael did this to Trulli many years ago at the same corner.. it was just about acceptable back then.
Not anymore

schumi overtakes trulli on the outside.flv - YouTube

rakirank · 22nd July 2012, 23:32

[quote=Hatari;2847950]Michael did this to Trulli many years ago at the same corner.. it was just about acceptable back then.
Not anymore

Thanks Hatari.

It appears you are right.

FIA DRIVER PROTOCOL DETAILS

“Rule 20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.

“A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.

“Should a car leave the track the driver may rejoin, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage.

“A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason.”

I still can't fathom, why the team did not advise Vettel to give up the position? That way he could have still been third!

ecenandu · 22nd July 2012, 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatari

Michael did this to Trulli many years ago at the same corner.. it was just about acceptable back then.
Not anymore

Yup, but Shumi finished overtaking Trulli, only when they where both back on track. But today when Vettel overtook Button, he had his car clearly on the run off area.

There was an incident between Hamilton and Rosberg earlier this season, but no action was taken against Hamilton.

J.B · 23rd July 2012, 02:00

Vettel clearly had an advantage of going early on the throttle on the pass over Button. IMHO, usually, if it was any other corner, the car that was in the outside line before the corner would have to go for the inside line while coming out of it.

Having said that, may be if he was in a Ferrari, he would have got away with that. The reason for my grudge is, the FIA did not bother to bring a safety car when there was lot of debris on the track, which ruined Hamilton's race. Is it because the lead car was Ferrari? What else is so different between this and the Valencia incident?, where the safety car was deployed when a redbull was in the lead.

deetjohn · 23rd July 2012, 08:55

Sublime drive by Alonso. The F2012 doesn't look that fast when compared to the McLaren or the RB8, but Alonso was able to maintain just the right gap all throughout without destroying his tyres. And with these tyres, it is very difficult to judge who was faster overall. But McLaren looks good in the dry.

I think stewards got both the rulings correct. Vettel should have given back the place to Button, as he had all 4 wheels off the track. And Vettel ran wide earlier and the faster Hamilton made a clean move. It became a hindrance for Vettel' pursuit of Alonso, but Hamilton did nothing wrong. Anyone can unlap if they are faster than the leader.

RBR has managed to outsmart FIA with their new engine mappings. And it is well within the written rules that FIA can't do anything about it other than changing the wordings yet again. Very smart indeed.

All shaping up nicely for the second half of the season.

vb-saan · 23rd July 2012, 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by deetjohn

I think stewards got both the rulings correct. Vettel should have given back the place to Button, as he had all 4 wheels off the track. And Vettel ran wide earlier and the faster Hamilton made a clean move. It became a hindrance for Vettel' pursuit of Alonso, but Hamilton did nothing wrong. Anyone can unlap if they are faster than the leader.

Thinking about it - was that a deliberate ploy from Lewis, to slow down and frustrate Vettel? Clearly those lost seconds helped Jensen to jump ahead after Vettel's pitstop. For me, there were not many events in the whole race except this one.

And wonder if Vettel called out any names for Lewis - like he did to Narain earlier in the season

sgiitk · 23rd July 2012, 10:15

Fantastic race. Vettel's penalty though sad, was expected. What bugged me is that the man who caused all the mayhem 'Hamilton' got away scot free.

asr245 · 23rd July 2012, 10:52

Not a very interesting race. I was hoping for a wet one. Few talking points of the race for me.

- Should Hamilton be investigated for "impeding" lead cars? What do the rules say?
- With so much debris, should n't safety car have been deployed to clear those up?
- Vettel clearly went off-track and gained a position which is clearly against rules. I thought FIA had made it quite clear but apparently bulls missed it. Or maybe they should have gravel traps instead of tarmac in run off areas.
- Those Saubers have clearly found something with these tires. They have come have lower half of the grid into top 8 more than a few times this season.

DRIVEN-TWEEL · 23rd July 2012, 11:39

Fernando was a class apart. Pressure brings out the best in him. Qualifying and then the race. Great race..

anachronix · 23rd July 2012, 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by vb-san

Thinking about it - was that a deliberate ploy from Lewis, to slow down and frustrate Vettel? Clearly those lost seconds helped Jensen to jump ahead after Vettel's pitstop. For me, there were not many events in the whole race except this one.

And wonder if Vettel called out any names for Lewis - like he did to Narain earlier in the season

Lewis was lapping 0.7 secs faster than Vettel at the time he overtook Vettel. A lapped car has every right to unlap itself and Lewis did nothing to impede Vettel's progress. It was only Vettel's ego!

I am still surprised when Alonso was holding up a bloody quick Lewis in that Mclaren and used Lewis's car to his advantage and was also staying away from the DRS zone when Button was chasing him. Mclarens were clearly the faster car and the asturian did everything to keep the Ferrari ahead of them. I am happy that Alonso has a comfortable lead with the points going into the 2nd half of the season.

A major aero upgrade coming on the Ferrari in Spa, I hope they will stay and fight in front of the grid! Until then, its Mclaren with the fastest car going to Hungary

22nd July 2012, 20:01	#16
PAVAN KADAM BANNED Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: NAMMA BENGALURU Posts: 5,602 Thanked: 2,552 Times	Re: 2012 F1 - German Grand Prix I somehow did not like the race today. Terrible coverage, worst ever commentary, and a bit boring. Was that move from Vettel over Button Justified..? Alonso is edging away towards the title for sure, he looks really comfortable to take the WDC this year. Last edited by PAVAN KADAM : 22nd July 2012 at 20:08.
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22nd July 2012, 20:14	#17
mgh BHPian Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Bangalore Posts: 396 Thanked: 40 Times	Re: 2012 F1 - German Grand Prix Alonso is 34 points ahead of Webber and 36 of Vettel, who is 23 points ahead of Kimi. McLaren are in third place, just one point ahead of Lotus. FI are eighth, one point behind Williams, and thirty-two points behind Sauber, who are in sixth place. FI are doomed to eighth place, unless they unlock the secrets of the Pirellis in the remaining races. Force India had problems with Bridgestone tyres as well. FI are incapable of gathering a bunch of points from races, unlike Williams and Sauber. Sauber have found out how to manage the Pirellis, and with the eccentric Maldonado, Williams will collect a bunch of points now and then. Hulkenberg was forced into a 3 stop strategy, as he started losing too much pace. If FI had planned a three stop strategy to start with, he might have scored more points. Considering that they are unable to make the tyres last, they might as well plan for it. Their car seems to be fast enough to make the strategy work. In any case, they will not do worse. Last edited by mgh : 22nd July 2012 at 20:18.
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22nd July 2012, 21:18	#18
aditya116 BHPian Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: calicut Posts: 317 Thanked: 51 Times	Re: 2012 F1 - German Grand Prix vettel is penalised 20 secs for that move on button dropping him to 5 th.
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22nd July 2012, 22:09	#19
rakirank BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: BANGALORE Posts: 92 Thanked: 183 Times	Re: 2012 F1 - German Grand Prix "vettel is penalised 20 secs for that move on button dropping him to 5 th." I honestly don't see the sense in this. It was not one of those corners were there was an undue advantage to Vettel. It was not like he cut a corner. He ensured that the cars did not touch. He actually said as much to Button before going to the podium.
	() Thanks

22nd July 2012, 22:43	#20
Hatari Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Calcutta Posts: 1,880 Thanked: 881 Times	Re: 2012 F1 - German Grand Prix What a race! Mega drive by Fernando! What a driver! holding off Vettel and then Button all through without them even trying to sneak in was amazing. Shame about Lewis.. Mclarens were real quick today after the upgrades they brought. Sauber too have got it right in terms of race pace. Vettel made a desperate move, clearly illegal. He went around the outside and took the wider line which was off the track. He should have given the place back and tried again. Disappointing race for Webber too.. expected more from him
	() Thanks

22nd July 2012, 23:32	#22
rakirank BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: BANGALORE Posts: 92 Thanked: 183 Times	Re: 2012 F1 - German Grand Prix [quote=Hatari;2847950]Michael did this to Trulli many years ago at the same corner.. it was just about acceptable back then. Not anymore Thanks Hatari. It appears you are right. FIA DRIVER PROTOCOL DETAILS “Rule 20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not. “A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track. “Should a car leave the track the driver may rejoin, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage. “A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason.” I still can't fathom, why the team did not advise Vettel to give up the position? That way he could have still been third!
	() Thanks

23rd July 2012, 02:00	#24
J.B BHPian Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Corvallis, USA Posts: 44 Thanked: 27 Times	Re: 2012 F1 - German Grand Prix Vettel clearly had an advantage of going early on the throttle on the pass over Button. IMHO, usually, if it was any other corner, the car that was in the outside line before the corner would have to go for the inside line while coming out of it. Having said that, may be if he was in a Ferrari, he would have got away with that. The reason for my grudge is, the FIA did not bother to bring a safety car when there was lot of debris on the track, which ruined Hamilton's race. Is it because the lead car was Ferrari? What else is so different between this and the Valencia incident?, where the safety car was deployed when a redbull was in the lead.
	() Thanks

23rd July 2012, 08:55	#25
deetjohn Senior - BHPian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kochi Posts: 4,530 Thanked: 10,587 Times View My Garage	Re: 2012 F1 - German Grand Prix Sublime drive by Alonso. The F2012 doesn't look that fast when compared to the McLaren or the RB8, but Alonso was able to maintain just the right gap all throughout without destroying his tyres. And with these tyres, it is very difficult to judge who was faster overall. But McLaren looks good in the dry. I think stewards got both the rulings correct. Vettel should have given back the place to Button, as he had all 4 wheels off the track. And Vettel ran wide earlier and the faster Hamilton made a clean move. It became a hindrance for Vettel' pursuit of Alonso, but Hamilton did nothing wrong. Anyone can unlap if they are faster than the leader. RBR has managed to outsmart FIA with their new engine mappings. And it is well within the written rules that FIA can't do anything about it other than changing the wordings yet again. Very smart indeed. All shaping up nicely for the second half of the season.
	() Thanks

23rd July 2012, 10:15	#27
sgiitk Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Gurugram Posts: 7,971 Thanked: 4,796 Times	Re: 2012 F1 - German Grand Prix Fantastic race. Vettel's penalty though sad, was expected. What bugged me is that the man who caused all the mayhem 'Hamilton' got away scot free.
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23rd July 2012, 10:52	#28
asr245 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Gurgaon Posts: 1,162 Thanked: 391 Times	Re: 2012 F1 - German Grand Prix Not a very interesting race. I was hoping for a wet one. Few talking points of the race for me. - Should Hamilton be investigated for "impeding" lead cars? What do the rules say? - With so much debris, should n't safety car have been deployed to clear those up? - Vettel clearly went off-track and gained a position which is clearly against rules. I thought FIA had made it quite clear but apparently bulls missed it. Or maybe they should have gravel traps instead of tarmac in run off areas. - Those Saubers have clearly found something with these tires. They have come have lower half of the grid into top 8 more than a few times this season.
	() Thanks

23rd July 2012, 11:39	#29
DRIVEN-TWEEL BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: calicut Posts: 58 Thanked: 72 Times	Fernando was a class apart. Pressure brings out the best in him. Qualifying and then the race. Great race..
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