Team-BHP - 2017 Formula 1 Hungarian GP

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Originally Posted by jpcoolguy (Post 4243558)

True that, Kimi fended off whatever Hamilton thrown at him. If he would have been allowed to pass Vettel, both Mercedes could have overtook Vettel and might have lost his podium. Tough luck for Kimi, but keeping his words that he will "help" Vettel to win the WDC.

Checking the lap times, it can be seen that Vettel managed to match Kimi's pace and so I don't quite see where this "Had Kimi not ..." statements come from. Hamilton came within DRS range for a few laps, but the Merc did not have the combination of tire grip and brute force to come out of the Ferrari's turbulent wake and so he never really threatened Kimi. Even if Kimi was allowed to pass, Vettel still had pretty much the same lap time as Kimi, so the task of passing Vettel was still daunting and probably impossible for the Mercs in Hungary, 2017. I've attached a spreadsheet with the data from Lap 36 to 70. (Source of the data: http://www.fia.com/events/fia-formul...information-32)

Seb drove magnificently despite the "hanging to the left" and folks seem to overlook it in favor of Kimi's heroics in fending off Hamilton.

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Originally Posted by sun_king (Post 4243812)

Kimi's lap times were similar to Vettel because he was help up by Vettel. I don't know if you've noticed, but for the last 20 laps or so, Kimi was with 1-2 second of Vettel and he also got to within 0.5s immediately after the pit stop.

It would've been foolish to attempt an overtake on Vettel as it could've ended in tears and I feel he was right to complain about Vettel holding him up. I guess Vettel also understood the same and thanked Kimi post race for not making a big fuss about it.

All that being said, IMO the decision to keep Kimi in 2nd was in the best interest of the team. Kimi finishing 1st or 2nd wouldn't have made any difference to the team nor for his drivers championship position. On the other hand, Vettel finishing 1st means an additional 7 points lead over Hamilton which might just be the difference between winning the championship and coming in second.

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Originally Posted by sun_king (Post 4243812)

Those lap times don't prove anything. If at all, what it shows is that Vettel held up Kimi big time. Vettel was in the lead the whole time, so he dictated the pace. To say that he matched the pace of the car behind sounds quite silly! Lead cars are expected to pull a gap ahead and not match the pace of cars behind. Kimi never really attacked Seb nor was he allowed past, so we never know how much faster Kimi could have gone if he was ahead. Looking at Kimi's in-lap before his pit stop, he had 5/6 tenths extra at the least.

Secondly just because Lewis couldn't overtake Kimi doesn't mean it would have been the same with Seb. Seb was told not to use Kerbs, so Lewis had better chance to force Seb into some defensive line or force a mistake. Still doesn't guarantee that Lewis could have overtaken, but a possibility anyhow.

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Originally Posted by SilentEngine (Post 4243924)

Those lap times don't prove anything.

It does, it clearly shows that both cars could have handled the Merc threat. Hamilton's lap times were, on average, slower than what the Ferraris were doing.

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If at all, what it shows is that Vettel held up Kimi big time. Vettel was in the lead the whole time, so he dictated the pace.

My post was never really about Ferrari vs Ferrari, it was about Vettel's capability to handle the Mercedes threat, had it ever happened in Hungary last Sunday. Dictating the pace is what the lead car does. Some races are won by keeping every other car behind you.

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To say that he matched the pace of the car behind sounds quite silly!

It is :). So here is the correction "... Vettel managed to respond to Kimi's pace ...

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Lead cars are expected to pull a gap ahead and not match the pace of cars behind.

That was what he was doing before the steering issue popped up. After the twin disaster of Silverstone, it was not wise to push the car more than what is necessary.

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Kimi never really attacked Seb nor was he allowed past, so we never know how much faster Kimi could have gone if he was ahead. Looking at Kimi's in-lap before his pit stop, he had 5/6 tenths extra at the least.

Harsh as it may sound, Kimi's chance for the year is gone. The 5th placed driver attempting to upstage the championship leading teammate is not the best thing for a team starved of championships for a decade. Kimi did what he is paid for and what he will be paid for in 2018.

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Secondly just because Lewis couldn't overtake Kimi doesn't mean it would have been the same with Seb. Seb was told not to use Kerbs, so Lewis had better chance to force Seb into some defensive line or force a mistake.

This would mean that Seb is the only one susceptible to driver error. But on Sunday, wasn't it Lewis who made the driver error and gave up his chasing of Kimi in the dying stages of the race? (Backmarker, marbles etc.)

And Seb was told to avoid the kerbs if possible. He was putting in impressive lap times despite driving conservatively, I'd go with the assumption that he could have gone over the kerbs if needed towards the end of the race. He was sufficiently accustomed to the offset steering and the offset was stable in the latter part of the race.

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Still doesn't guarantee that Lewis could have overtaken, but a possibility anyhow.

I'd prefer the possibilities if the worst had not happened to Ricciardo, the Red Bulls were really fast and if they were in play, it would have made a more genuine claim than with the Mercs. The way Max finished despite 10 second penalty shows that that the Red Bulls were faster than the Mercs.

To summarize, Seb's podium was not Kimi's generosity. Max's antics ensured that Seb would not have finished anything lower than 2nd. The mighty Hamilton was treated with the delightful sight of rear wings of the Red Bull all the way till he went to the pits and it needed the 10-second stoppage for the Mercs to stop worrying about the final podium position.

More drama than usual for Hungary! Shame Max knocked out Daniel in that silly move, with the Ferrari's limping towards the end, we could have had even more drama.

Brave call by Mercedes to give the place back to Bottas after he was miles behind and Max so close to him.

Clear case of Lewis wanting Bottas to stay and Vettel wanting Kimi to stay due to the Alonso/Max/Perez threat!
Kimi is never going to attack the driver that is keeping him in the team!

What a great move by Alonso on Sainz! and fastest lap on old tires.. how did he manage that!?

Renault are the other team making strides. Good pace from Hulk.
Not too impressed with Magnussen. Pushing a car that is alongside and even slightly ahead out of the race track is not fair racing.

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Originally Posted by sun_king (Post 4244215)

It does, it clearly shows that both cars could have handled the Merc threat. Hamilton's lap times were, on average, slower than what the Ferraris were doing.

My post was never really about Ferrari vs Ferrari, it was about Vettel's capability to handle the Mercedes threat, had it ever happened in Hungary last Sunday. Dictating the pace is what the lead car does. Some races are won by keeping every other car behind you.

Vettel himself acknowledged that Kimi could have gone a lot faster. Your assumption that Vettel could have handled any attack from Hamilton is just an assumption based on what Kimi did. Just because Kimi defended well from Hamilton, you can't extrapolate and say Vettel could have also defended same way.
Fact is that Kimi never attacked Vettel, so it made Vettel's job a lot easier, so Vettel did not have to defend from anyone in the race.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/h...it-looked.html

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I am not complaining that Kimi wasn't let by. But large points difference between Vettel and Raikkonen doesn't tell the true picture. Kimi was taken out in Spain and Baku, and if you consider Monaco, then Kimi would have had similar points as Bottas in the standings. In anycase, Ferrari have already made their plans much earlier in the season. Unlike Mercedes, Ferrari have a clear No 1.

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I never said only Seb was susceptible to driver error. My point is that Seb was never under any attack from behind whatsoever, and that's how most saw the race. I would leave it at that.

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I'd prefer the possibilities if the worst had not happened to Ricciardo, the Red Bulls were really fast and if they were in play, it would have made a more genuine claim than with the Mercs. The way Max finished despite 10 second penalty shows that that the Red Bulls were faster than the Mercs.

To summarize, Seb's podium was not Kimi's generosity. Max's antics ensured that Seb would not have finished anything lower than 2nd. The mighty Hamilton was treated with the delightful sight of rear wings of the Red Bull all the way till he went to the pits and it needed the 10-second stoppage for the Mercs to stop worrying about the final podium position.

It may not be Kimi's generosity, but certainly Kimi helped Seb keep is lead, by not attacking him and listening to pit wall.
Yes, the fact that Redbulls took themselves out of contention also helped Vettel indirectly.

Say whatever you will about Mercedes or the RBR pace, the fact remains that Kimi was the most likely to win the race in a no holds barred race between all six assuming no crash between the Red Bull's. He had the pace to overtake Vettel and showed the skill to keep both Max and Lewis behind him on a track where overtaking is difficult. He showed quick pace in qualifying and was second at the start. I feel sad for him

Regarding why Lewis gave up his spot to Bottas for me comes down to keeping your word so that people give you an opportunity again. If he hadn't the next time he asked Bottas to let him pass he would have refused. Talk all you want about conscience and ethics, this explains it better than anything else

Ferrari always have had a clear No.1 & No.2 driver strategy in order to secure the Driver's Championship.
Where as many other teams let their drivers race freely.
I think Kimi also understand that he is expected to play the No.2 driver's role at times.
On this track Mercedes did not enjoy the advantage they normally do due to the twisty nature of the track and Ferrari with a short wheelbase was expected to perform better at Hangaroring.
Catching up is one thing, but making an overtake move stick is something else.
Especially when you have a lot to loose.

This is how it should be done.:D

https://youtu.be/JHMEEZDG11U

Possible only when you can afford to take risks, which normally a championship contender might not.