[attinder]

Originally Posted by aim120

The only thing Mercedes did was run the engines at uprated power but at the cost of reliability.

An option customer teams do not have. Williams can't run the engines harder for a point or two. Absolutely not fair.

[NKB]

FIA has found that there has been minor breach of Cost Cap which defined to be upto 5% of the Cost cap and in absolute terms for last year that translates to roughly USD 7.25 mn.

I see people talking of about overspend of 7mn, 5 mn etc. But we really do not know how much exactly the overspend is. Also this was first year when the cost budget was prescribed and there could be differences how teams interpret the component and how the regulator look at them. So just jumping to conclusions is very pre-mature and we should wait to see all the relevant details to come out.

As regard what Toto spoke about effect of extra spend in that year and next years, I agree with him. And in that sense, Merc already had an advantage of around USD 40 mn extra spend (compared to assumed maximum of USD 7.25 mn) while coming into 2021 championship. Merc had spent approx. USD 485 mn compared to RBRs USD 445 mn in 2019 and similar numbers in 2020. Here we need to note that there were no major changes in technical regulations and hence the advantage was significant. Hence to my sense to provide a level playing filed FIA should have taken expenditure in previous years into consideration and prescribed adjusted budget caps for respective teams for the first few years and then move to a single budget.

As regards, punishment as to whether the team should get reprimand, Financial Penalty, point deduction etc. to my mind it is very much important to understand that on what account the breach has happened and whether the extra spend was such that the team got an advantage to change the outcome of championship.

[aim120]

Originally Posted by NKB

As regards, punishment as to whether the team should get reprimand, Financial Penalty, point deduction etc. to my mind it is very much important to understand that on what account the breach has happened and whether the extra spend was such that the team got an advantage to change the outcome of championship.

Alfa Romeo team boss Fred Vasseur says "their budget for parts and upgrade was 2.4 million and that with 200,000 would have been enough to bring a big update and one that’s worth a couple of tenths for more than one race"

So if redbull has indeed spent millions, that will definitely means Max would have finised second or third. Even the clashes on track would not have happened. Lewis would have pulled away like how Max is doing this year.

[NKB]

Originally Posted by aim120

So if redbull has indeed spent millions, that will definitely means Max would have finised second or third. Even the clashes on track would not have happened. Lewis would have pulled away like how Max is doing this year.

I look at it from another angle, with a low budget ($145mn and not expenditure of $400 mn+) Lewis is not even able to pull away from some of the midfield cars.

[ambandla]

Originally Posted by Cyborg

Not necessarily GTO, this is done by the Cost Cap Adjudication Panel which is overseen by the FIA. FIA credentials are highly respected, impeccable, above and beyond any integrity issues.

Cheers

Silent agreement with Ferrari when they cheated on fuel flow to gain clear advantage.

Masi literally handed over championship to Max in Abu Dhabi.

2021 Belgian GP run behind safety car, just to mark it as 'race is run, award points'.

I doubt if we can call FIA impeccable and respected. They are making way too many mistakes and continue to favor big teams.

Anyways, this cost cap is not over. I have a feeling that RedBull did overspend in 2022 as well. Look at RedBull's cars at the beginning of season and look at the car now. Compare it to Ferrari. There is no way they made the car better without overspending. This kind of drastic in-season change used to happen back in the 90s and 00s when teams aggressively developed throughout the season as there was no cost cap.

[navin]

Originally Posted by GTO

The best solution will be hiring any of the Big 4 auditors (e.g. PWC, Deloitte) with the billing taken care of by F1 owners, so there is no conflict of interest when auditing the teams.

Originally Posted by Cyborg

Not necessarily GTO, this is done by the Cost Cap Adjudication Panel which is overseen by the FIA.

Originally Posted by ambandla

Anyways, this cost cap is not over.

I find this "Cost Cap" thing quite silly.

I appreciate what it is trying to do in spirit (level the playing field for the "mid-tier" teams). However, monitoring and controlling it won't be simple. As any "desi" businessman will tell you, there are myriad ways to circumvent any rules the FIA invents. No offence to Indian businessmen, but we all know how opaque many Indian business houses are.

As far as the Big 4 are concerned, the less said, the better. There are enough examples of their "incompetence". I am old enough to remember Enron (Arthur Andersen) and young enough to remember Lehman Brothers (E&Y).

[thehighwayman]

Never had any respect for this team to begin with. They (especially loud mouth Christian Horner) cry foul when things don't go their way however very conveniently choose to keep quiet when they are the ones breaking the rules.

[Scarlet_Rider]

Originally Posted by navin

I find this "Cost Cap" thing quite silly.

True. Best would be to go back to the 90s and 2000s type era. No budget caps, reintroduce refueling, reduce the number of races per year. The 24 race calendar of 2023 is an overkill.

[gtonsing]

Originally Posted by Scarlet_Rider

True. Best would be to go back to the 90s and 2000s type era. No budget caps, reintroduce refueling, reduce the number of races per year. The 24 race calendar of 2023 is an overkill.

Absolutely!! refueling is something that FIA should seriously consider - it makes tracks like Singapore etc interesting.
While they quote safety in the rules, I think FIA should look at some of their rules and weed out some of those that make races too formal. Racing is dangerous and safety is paramount, but at the same time, racing is not racing if you put in too much of unnecessary safety nets, IMHO.

The 24 races in 2023 is purely commercial.

Originally Posted by navin

I find this "Cost Cap" thing quite silly.

As far as the Big 4 are concerned, the less said, the better. There are enough examples of their "incompetence". I am old enough to remember Enron (Arthur Andersen) and young enough to remember Lehman Brothers (E&Y).

OT alert!
What do you mean by this sir? (In the most inoffensive manner) I have worked in Accenture and now am with EY (which just announced they are looking at splitting Auditing and Consulting - deja vu) and I would like to understand what you mean by 'less said better'
On second thoughts, leave it. Not for this forum or topic.

[navin]

Originally Posted by gtonsing

I would like to understand what you mean by 'less said better'

Engaging a Big 4 is no guarantee that accounting practices will be followed "correctly". There are enough cases that have shown this.

The argument that "hiring PWC or Deloitte" automatically implies that accounting standards will be adhered to and proper books maintained does not carry any weight, at least in my book.

[Cyborg]

Red Bull and FIA agree on penalty for the cost cap agreement breach but announcement postponed out of respect due to the passing of Dietrich Mateschitz.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/red-bu...lty-postponed/

This judgement will be all important to set a precedent for the future of the Cost Cap Agreement. If a befitting penalty is not given to Red Bull which will dissuade other teams, the agreement will become a farce.

Cheers

[Revvatron]

Originally Posted by Cyborg

This judgement will be all important to set a precedent for the future of the Cost Cap Agreement. If a befitting penalty is not given to Red Bull which will dissuade other teams, the agreement will become a farce.

I think it will be just slap on the wrist by FIA saying, since this is the first time we are letting it go off easily but next time it will be serious . The calm vibes from horner is clearly indicating towards this.
The most funny thing would be that if FIA announces some small penalty then Mercedes/Ferrari should come out and say they will be overspending next season and will pay off the penalty

[Scarlet_Rider]

Accepted breach agreement between Red Bull Racing Team and the FIA for breach of the 2021 FIA Formula One financial regulations. Document attached.

Source: https://www.fia.com/news/accepted-br...ia-formula-one

Excerpt from the document:

On that basis, RBR has accepted the imposition of the following sanctions:

a) RBR must pay a Financial Penalty of USD 7,000,000 to the FIA within 30 days of the date of execution of the ABA (Article 9.5 of the Financial Regulations);

b) RBR receives a Minor Sporting Penalty in the form of a limitation of RBR’s ability to conduct aerodynamic Testing during a period of 12 months from the date of execution of the ABA through the application of a reduction of 10% of the Coefficient C used to calculate the individual Restricted Wind Tunnel Testing (RWTT) and Restricted Computational Fluid Dynamics (RCFD) limits applicable to each Team as set out in Article 6 of Appendix 7 to the FIA Formula 1 Sporting Regulations. For example, if the Coefficient C, based on RBR’s championship position is 70%, the effective new value of C will be: Cnew=70% x (1-0.10) = 63.0%; and

c) RBR bears the costs incurred by the Cost Cap Administration in connection with the preparation of the ABA.

[iamahunter]

I am so curious to understand, how is it that FIA never questioned anybody when Mercedes were absolutely dominating for years.

In 2019 when Ferrari gave tough competition to Mercedes, they were found guilty.
2021, RB gave tough competition, again they are found guilty.

Multiple incidences when Mercedes drivers literally took out competition by crashing into them, and got away with just 5 second penalty (Hamilton in Silverstone with Max, Russell in COTA with Sainz). Just for comparison, Leclerc missed a corner in Japan and got a 5 second penalty.

Even in 2021, there were multiple incidences in which Mercedes were favored, especially Lewis. For instance, Lewis was not given a 5 seconds penalty for missing a corner in Abu Dhabi, Leclerc got one for a similar incident this year. Neither was Lewis asked to give back the place to Max.

All I am trying to say is, there seems to be some connection between Mercedes and FIA (of course not official).

I am not aware of how the cost caps are monitored, but how is the 2021 cost cap issue popping up when 2022 season is almost at the end?
Or if I may say - After Mercedes have tried most of the things to strip Max off the 2021 championship; and are still having a bad season after "My team don't make mistakes!".

[Scarlet_Rider]

Originally Posted by iamahunter

All I am trying to say is, there seems to be some connection between Mercedes and FIA (of course not official).

Who knows. It could be true.