[jerry can]

McLaren all the way. And who ever's in the leading MP4-25..

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

Car development is different from running the team, hiring personnel of your choice etc. At Ferrari, Schumacher was allowed to build his own team around him. At McLaren, especially under Ron Dennis, that wouldn't have happened. Dennis was always the boss and all his drivers know that. Renault, again, are like Ferrari as seen by how Alonso built that team to suit him. Its a cultural thing and the McLaren culture is one where drivers are drivers. That's it.

Thats more to do with the capability of the drivers in forming a team or developing a car to get them the right recipe on the track. If a team beleives in a driver for his capability in developing a much better car than what the team could do by themselves I see no reason as to why a team would restrict him from doing it.

If Mclaren beleived in a different culture that is Ron's, then Ron wouldnt have wanted Alonso in his team for 2007. Alonso was the man who won the WDC/WCC for a team like Renault in 2005 & 2006 against the favorites Mclaren & Ferrari. The only Championship won by the Renault team ever right from the late 70s.

And I am sure Mclaren/Ron was desperate to get their hands on the Championships with Alonso after their long holidays.

Ferrari's had no championships since 1976 or something like that till Schumacher did it in 1999 with the WCC. Much of that happened because he was given the freedom to assemble a team that he could work well with and were obviously talented enough. Good for him, but he couldn't have done that at McLaren for sure.

Ferrari lacked their WCC/WDC from 70's since they lacked the leadership and any team with a bad leader would obviously suck. The leader founded by Ferrari was Jean Todt.

It was Todt who was in Ron's place at Ferrari for the F1 team who bought in Michael & Brawn. It was not Michael who got Todt & Brawn to Ferrari. Ferrari wanted a leader like Todt and he formed the team which went on to break all records in F1.

That's why he rejected the McLaren offer. Do you honestly believe he did it out of loyalty for Ferrari, especially given that he hadn't managed to win any championships yet with them?

Michael rejected the Mclaren offer for what Ron was at Mclaren and nothing else!

Watch this funny clip which will make it more evident!

YouTube - Ron Dennis talks to Michael Schumacher

[kraft.wagen]

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

Well there's folks who would support a driver even if he had no chance of a WDC.

My bad I was jus thinking in lines of the top drivers, that were mentioned in the poll.

Originally Posted by anachronix

I would disagree with your assumptions here!

Do you think Mclaren drivers or rather any driver in F1 doesnt have a part in developing a car? You might be wrong here mate.

Its the skill of a driver to be able to communicate technically with his engineers who are working at the factory to develop a perfect car and Schumacher almost excelled in this area beyond expectations. His feedback and his attention to detail with the right mix of Ross Brawn & Todt got a winning team.

It would be much better to say that Schumacher got in the right people to build a winning team rather than saying he got the personal he liked!

Couldn't agree more here, any driver is for sure part of the car build and does play an important role there. The inputs given by the drivers during the test and practice drives are vital.

Originally Posted by anachronix

It was Todt who was in Ron's place at Ferrari for the F1 team who bought in Michael & Brawn. It was not Michael who got Todt & Brawn to Ferrari. Ferrari wanted a leader like Todt and he formed the team which went on to break all records in F1.

Excatly, but then definitely Schumi was lucky too. He was put in the right team at the right time and made a perfect combo with Brawn.
Had Senna been around things would have definitely not been what it is today

[samabhi]

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

Its a cultural thing and the McLaren culture is one where drivers are drivers. That's it.

How is it that Ron allowed Lewis to build a team around himself. Its a open secret that he preferred Lewis above Alonso, though the latter is the best of the two. What are the reasons that are making rounds that Button will have to struggle a lot to get into the Mclaren team? Is it just that Ron realised that to win championships the team should build around a single person. Almost all the seasons, Mika is preferred as the Number 1 driver in McLaren. I do agree to some extent that McLaren is little different from other teams when it comes to driver status,but they tend to break their own rules.

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

Good for him, but he couldn't have done that at McLaren for sure.

I dont quiet agree. Then why is that McLaren wanted to sign Schumacher so many times. It happened in 1996 and then in 2000 and 2003. It happened every time Schumacher's contract is up for a renewal.

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

Do you honestly believe he did it out of loyalty for Ferrari, especially given that he hadn't managed to win any championships yet with them?

Keeping the loyalty reasons apart which am sure he is, another reason why he stayed with Ferrari is, Ferrari is a legendary team in Formula one, the only team who survived in F1 from the beginning. Its a brand on its own and Schumacher wanted to achieve something with that special team which would prove him as a best driver - the very same reason why he wanted to move to Ferrari instead of Williams or Mclaren in 1996.

[McLaren Rulez]

Well you guys can believe what you like but when it comes to F1, the team culture at McLaren is different from any other. The McLaren team is not built around Lewis or Mika or anyone else. Things may change now that Dennis is out (I hope not) but until now, it was never a team that was built around the drivers. The drivers adapt to how the team works instead.

Let me tell you how it works at McLaren. The two drivers are completely equal at the start of the season. If one proves significantly faster, he gets the better strategy and updates. If not, they remain equal. Unless the team stands to lose through in fighting, the drivers are allowed to race. No driver can come in and change team operations to suit him or ask for an unwarranted number one status as Alonso found the hard way. At the end of 07, no team would have let Alonso even get into the car with they way he'd behaved but McLaren did (and its ridiculously easy to sabotage a race for a driver if the team wants to irrespective of the FIA "equality inspector" who was present). They gave him a decent shot too and if he'd kept it on the road in Fuji, he might have become champ. And all that's despite Dennis' open admission that they wanted Hamilton to win. All in all, the point is that McLaren don't give the drivers a free rein to do as they like. Its a structured operation into which the drivers are expected to integrate. Ferrari are not like that.

I know its nice to believe that Schumacher and Ferrari had a special connection, that it was legendary, that he was loyal and all that but F1 doesn't work like that. Its ambition and Ferrari was the best way for Schumacher to set up a winning force. They let him work in his own way and he did. Its up to you to accept it or believe that Ferrari's legenday status or loyalty was the reason why Schumacher went with them.

And I think that's quite enough OT in this thread though I'm sure you'll all certainly have the last word on it.

[nitrous]

Originally Posted by samabhi

He was put in the right team at the right time and made a perfect combo with Brawn.

Thats absolutely incorrect.
Schumi won two world championships with Benetton and moved to a Ferrari team that had just history of success. Its not like the best car was handed to him on a silver platter.

He needn't have moved. But something made him and the rest is history.

Similarly, I highly respect Valentino Rossi (5 time champion, then) for moving to an almost dead Yamaha team from a championship winning Honda.

[KRf1]

I believe that it was Luca di Montezmolo who built up the Ferrari team from the ruins of the early ninties . He brought in Jean Todt , Ross Brawn , Rory Byrne and ofcourse Micheal Schumacher . With all these elements he laid the foundation to the future successes of the driver and the team . Micheal Schumacher's raw speed , determination and his capability to provide amazing amount of input to these brilliant engineers further set them on the path to many championships . I also feel Schumi joined Ferrari as he was already a double world champion and getting a then down in the dumps team back to glory would add another feather in his cap . He relished that challenge . Now that Ferrari got used to such a phenomenaly involved driver , they couldnt digest the uninvolved style of Kimi and they needed a guy who could boost the morale of the engineering team . With Santander money they had the right oppurtunity to offload Kimi and look to the future with a driver which suits their style better .

Mclaren on the other hand as MclarenRulez has said have had a different philosophy , they try to get two of the fastest drivers they can get their hands on without bothering about driving styles and contribution to the engineers . Prost/Senna ,Mika/David , JPM/Kimi , Hamilton/Alonso and now Button /Lewis .Only after burning their fingers with Alonso they went for a much milder Kovy who turned out to be their chink in the armour to fight for constructors , now they have set the balance straight.

Everyone looks at first their chances of winning , the best machinary and next for the best amount of money availaible . IMHO there is no loyalty involved . Infact the engineers and crew are more loyal than the drivers .

Sorry for going off topic.

[samabhi]

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

Well you guys can believe what you like but when it comes to F1, the team culture at McLaren is different from any other. The McLaren team is not built around Lewis or Mika or anyone else. Things may change now that Dennis is out (I hope not) but until now, it was never a team that was built around the drivers. The drivers adapt to how the team works instead.

I liked what you told about the way it works in McLaren. Well things seem to change atleast for now and other teams are following a similar approach with equally rated drivers in the team.

But then its the sheer talent of Schumacher who outpassed his team members all the time and as you said, yes he likes the team to be concenrated around him and do they really have another option? If there is another driver who comes closely to that then it is Alonso.

I really didnt like the way McLaren treated a double world champion. Alonso clearly had the advantage over Lewis. Be it giving valuabe inputs to the team or the superior knowledge about the car. Lets not forget the fact that he drove on Michelins all those years in F1 and he never had any experience with Bridgestone. It did take a lot of affect on his driving style and ultimately the results. On the other hand, Lewis has clearly taken advantage of his experience with Bridgestones (GP2) and the valuable inputs from Alonso. I am sure you know the fact that Lewis compared his data with Alonso's over each and every corner, apex speed, braking points. I dont think Ron behaved the right way by favouring a rookie over a double world champion, given that he knows all the facts.

Finally am glad that Alonso got to the right team, just at the place he needed to be. It will be interesting to watch the cry kid Massa. I never think he has the true potential to win a WDC. Hope he will not become another Eddie Irvine.

All well said, lets move on and I look forward to the most exciting F1 season ever (atleast in the last two decades.).

Originally Posted by KRf1

I also feel Schumi joined Ferrari as he was already a double world champion and getting a then down in the dumps team back to glory would add another feather in his cap .

Thats exactly what I was trying to say in my previous post. Changing the fortunes of a stuggling team will prove his mettle and abilities to the world.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

The McLaren team is not built around Lewis or Mika or anyone else. Things may change now that Dennis is out (I hope not) but until now, it was never a team that was built around the drivers. The drivers adapt to how the team works instead.

Well, its true when you say how it was during Mika's time. But not at the time when Lewis & his Senior is around in the Mclaren garage. Did you forget the Mclaren press conference on their Numero Uno for 2008!?

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

Let me tell you how it works at McLaren. The two drivers are completely equal at the start of the season. If one proves significantly faster, he gets the better strategy and updates. If not, they remain equal. Unless the team stands to lose through in fighting, the drivers are allowed to race.

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

No driver can come in and change team operations to suit him or ask for an unwarranted number one status as Alonso found the hard way. At the end of 07, no team would have let Alonso even get into the car with they way he'd behaved but McLaren did (and its ridiculously easy to sabotage a race for a driver if the team wants to irrespective of the FIA "equality inspector" who was present). They gave him a decent shot too and if he'd kept it on the road in Fuji, he might have become champ. And all that's despite Dennis' open admission that they wanted Hamilton to win. All in all, the point is that McLaren don't give the drivers a free rein to do as they like. Its a structured operation into which the drivers are expected to integrate. Ferrari are not like that.

The same did happen at Ferrari in 2007, 2008 & 2009 or the same happens over & over again at Redbull, STR, Force India, Toyota.

How is Mclaren different here!?

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

I know its nice to believe that Schumacher and Ferrari had a special connection, that it was legendary, that he was loyal and all that but F1 doesn't work like that. Its ambition and Ferrari was the best way for Schumacher to set up a winning force. They let him work in his own way and he did. Its up to you to accept it or believe that Ferrari's legenday status or loyalty was the reason why Schumacher went with them.

Ferrari has the legendary status which makes most driver on the grid feel it to be an honour to drive for them. Just like what Fisichella did last season.

But, Michael did join Ferrari at a time when Ferrari was a dog.

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

And I think that's quite enough OT in this thread though I'm sure you'll all certainly have the last word on it.

My last word on this for sure mate

[karthik247]

I guess ill be backing up F Massa this season. The guy is properly fast and is up there with the best. Really hope to see him do well and clinch the WDC.

As for the WCC, well its Ferrari as always No second thoughts.