[lapis_lazuli]

Originally Posted by desdemona

Hi. Now, is that a 'rhetorical question'? If so, it needs no answer, does it?

I am willing to be the cat even if it kills me!

No annoyance anywhere desdemona! Just like you, and many other FIAT lovers, I too would love to see FIAT grow and prosper beyond just selling the engine. Nothing pleases me more than when I see the monthly sales figures for FIAT on the rise!

You may be right on the warranty thingy, but I tend to believe, that's probably the least they can do, to create an image. I have heard of similar generosity with Nissan ASS (Micra), Renault Fluence (both headlamps changed because of "unsatisfactory" beam height), but TATA rejecting bulged stepnee, even when it is totally unused, and accidentally discovered while car cleaning! So....our data sample size is probably too low to classify anything about ASS/brands etc. as a pure end user or an enthusiastic forum reader!

Tabloid data on customer satisfaction : is something which I can influence too, if I wanted to !

I think, for the moment, its best if we just stick to enjoying our respective rides, pray a bit, that it maintains its shape(small niggles, chalega) and hope for this brand to grow till it becomes arrogant enough to ignore its fans but clever enough to please the customers! That day will be the day it has really succeeded ! Then, we would have more FIAT ASSes than there are donkeys in Kutch, and we wouldn't be having this discussion at all!

[desdemona]

Methinks we need to start, what do the internauting kids call it?: a 'meme' about FASS in India, and release it into the informational ether. In the hope that it will reach Sergio Marchionne, who is the 'concerned authority' presumably, demanding that we in Delhi NCR, India, a bigger car market than the next four cities put together, need a company owned FASS set-up, with robots and algorithms rather than underpaid blase mechanics, their managers, and dubious maaliks. And that in exchange we promise to do sincere praise-singing in chorus at the altar of Indo-Italian automobile goodness. ;-)

[Biraj]

Originally Posted by desdemona

Methinks we need to start, what do the internauting kids call it?: a 'meme' about FASS in India, and release it into the informational ether. In the hope that it will reach Sergio Marchionne, who is the 'concerned authority' presumably, demanding that we in Delhi NCR, India, a bigger car market than the next four cities put together, need a company owned FASS set-up, with robots and algorithms rather than underpaid blase mechanics, their managers, and dubious maaliks. And that in exchange we promise to do sincere praise-singing in chorus at the altar of Indo-Italian automobile goodness. ;-)

Nice idea however, considering Fiat's ability in social media listening, I wouldn't bet high on its success.

Till that time, let's hope that Fiat's A$$ improves because "hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."

[Biraj]

Update on the issues highlighted in earlier posts:

Earlier this week, I forwarded my communication with Kashyap Fiat to Mangesh. He promptly intervened and asked Arun Rajput (CS Head for North) to speak with guys at Kashyap.

I got a call from Vicky Raina (GM Service at Kashyap Okhla). He acknowledged the fact that there was an error in communication from his team, and the charges too didn't appear correct to him. I told him it's fine, and the intent of my complaint was not to get some refund. All I want is that the work should be done well, and I don't have to face the issues again.

He came to my house today morning, and checked the car himself. Luckily, the shuddering issues happened in front of him, in fact he drove it and could experience it. He agreed that there is an issue and it needs to be checked. He also agreed that their technicians missed out on checking it while the car was with them. He assured that he will get the work done under his supervision, and ensure that this gets resolved quickly. I have asked them to pick it up on Monday and get the work done. My wife (despite being a BHPian) might not pardon another weekend spent on maintaining Crusoe.

It's quite reassuring to see that the leadership at the dealer as well as Fiat is taking the complaints seriously. Especially, Vicky's customer oriented attitude is impressive because he first understood the issue on phone and then reached my house at 9.30 AM to check the issues himself. I hope this sort of customer oriented attitude continues and is extended to all customers. Perhaps, even they were glad to come across a customer that was complaining to get the issues resolved, and not negotiating on compensation/freebies.

Let's hope they resolve all issues on Monday. Until then, I continue to hope...

[lapis_lazuli]

Originally Posted by Biraj

I got a call from Vicky Raina (GM Service at Kashyap Okhla). He acknowledged the fact

Bad times, good times, better times, niggles, bad times, good times, better times : FIAT times!

Now Biraj, wait and watch! Get everything resolved in one go, AC even, and forget the ASS. Its in a GMs JD to talk corporate to such customers and pacify him by acknowledging everything that he says. He is an administrator and not a real floor buddy, so his feedback after the work is "completed", to you, would be what an SA communicated to him over phone. You will never come to know of the real picture and only some driving will reveal the true picture. This cycle would continue, so would our frequent re-discovery of various faces of the A$$ (no pun or whatever intended )!

And then, change your signature man.....

[Biraj]

Originally Posted by lapis_lazuli

Bad times, good times, better times, niggles, bad times, good times, better times : FIAT times!

Now Biraj, wait and watch!

As expected, Kashyap guys forgot to pick the car up. Called the GM (Vicky Raina) but he was clueless. Got to know from a fellow-BHPian (@Puchoo) that Mr. OP Sharma is at Okhla to check his car. Mr. Sharma's reputation precedes him thus, decided to take the car to Okhla, to get it checked from him. Reached there and met Subhash and asked him about the reason for not picking up the car. His response was that Mr. Raina told him that I will bring the car, and do not require a pick-up. I don't even get angry/upset at such miscommunication now.

Anyway, moving on to more important things. Caught hold of Mr. Sharma and explained the issues to him. He sat in the car and after hearing the engine note, said the spark-plugs need changing. The man definitely knows his stuff and the symptoms do match spark-plug related issues. It's a different story that nobody could pin-point it all this while.
He told me that it should have been changed during the third service. I informed him that the third service was done at Kashyap Noida in February and nobody mentioned the need for changing the spark plugs. He asked me the name of SA that took care of the servicing and seemed disappointed that his team missed out on identifying a spark-plug related issue and didn't change it during the scheduled service.

He has asked one of his senior technicians to pick my car tomorrow and get the work done in Noida. He has promised to sort out all the issues within tomorrow.

In the meanwhile, can anybody PM a link to soft copy of Linea T-jet's service manual?

[lapis_lazuli]

Originally Posted by Biraj

As expected, Kashyap guys forgot to pick the car up....I don't even get angry/upset at such miscommunication now. ...

He sat in the car and after hearing the engine note, said the spark-plugs need changing. The man definitely knows his stuff ...

seemed disappointed

Adoption of the zen, is what best describes the angry/upset part ...welcome !

Aren't you being too quick? You have had a taste of the "been there, done that, seen it all, hence I rule till I retire" attitude, an year back, after which we had fantastic chicken and tandoori roti at the dhaba!

Normally, SAs would not EVER miss out on replacing heavily priced consumables: believe me, margins can be as high as 65% on consumables (on MRP). On the other hand, it does make sense, the symptoms part. I will go to Kashyap later on during the day, for the ECU update and will keep a close watch on the procedure they apply on your car. Its been quite a while man!

[puchoo]

Just another example then on how bad they can be at FIAT , they cannot even make or come up with reasons to make money!

Originally Posted by lapis_lazuli

Normally, SAs would not EVER miss out on replacing heavily priced consumables: believe me, margins can be as high as 65% on consumables (on MRP).

[Biraj]

Another update:

Last week the car was picked up by Kashyap Fiat (Noida) early in the morning. They (as per them) checked the car thoroughly and were affirmative that the Spark-plugs are the culprit. Changed the spark-plugs and the fuel-filter. The filter was changed during the third service in February and the car had done ~2000 KMs since the change. I use the same bunk as a fellow BHPian (lapis_lazuli) so, it's difficult to believe that the quality of fuel there is horrible. Anyway, the filter was completely clogged and I didn't want them to clean it so, agreed to get it changed. Total damage ~Rs 3800 (~3200 for spark plugs, ~500 for fuel-filter, and ~80 for some clip). They didn't charge labour as I had identified a clear case of 'misleading the customer' by their team in Okhla. The invoice (related to gear-box seal) that I uploaded in the previous page had 3 labour charge entries for one task. So Kashyap Fiat, charged me twice for the same work. Another revelation was that lathe work was not for gear-box, it was used for some nut connecting silencer to the engine. I never had any issue related to it, and neither did they inform me before doing the work. And ~Rs 900 for lathe on one nut? I highlighted all this to CS Head (North). He acted shocked and called the service manager to give him a piece of his mind, and instructed him to issue a refund. Service manager offered to not charge the labour on the current job, despite it being much lesser than what I paid, I agreed. I have lost trust on these guys, and that damage is more than a few hundreds/thousands.

After paying the invoice, I left the service center with hope that there won't be any more problems in near future. As always with Fiat, they add a new problem along with solving the previous one. They pulled the engine protection plate downwards as they believe it's too close to the oil-sump in the T-jet. They had tried to do it during service as well, and I had asked them not to do it. This time, they did it in my absence. Now, I have to take all speed breakers at <10 KMPH else, the plate hits the speed breaker.

While the car had become very smooth after changing the spark-plugs, the jerkiness at around 1800 RPM is back with vengeance since yesterday. Don't know whether it's the heat or something else, I have never faced this amount of turbo-lag in my car. I have completely lost the trust on the competence as well as integrity of FASS, and have started searching for competent multi-branded service center or some reliable/experienced FNG. Any leads or a copy of service manual for T-jet will be highly appreciated.

[desdemona]

Hi Biraj.

Not nice, this story.

A suggestion: you could try DRS Motors, the FASS in Faridabad and now Gurgaon. I have heard good things about them from several people, and intend patronising them for at least one of the Fiats. I visited their new set-up here in Gurgaon, was impressed, and got good vibes from the Manager Mr. Rawat.. Give them a go man.

Of course the usual caveats about 'vibes' and 'good set-up' not amounting to much if practices are inept or dubious, holds.

All the best man

PS: Do you stand and get servicing/repairs done right in front of your eyes? Because if you don't this sort of crap is likely to go down. What is good about both DRS and even Torque in Gurgaon (though the latter still has someway to improve), is that they are small-ish operations that enable direct supervision/briefing/debriefing, as also building some kind of a longer-term 'relationship' with SAs, mechanics, and the manager.. Maybe Kashyap is too damn big for proper supervision and QC of the servicing?!)

[Biraj]

Originally Posted by desdemona

A suggestion: you could try DRS Motors, the FASS in Faridabad and now Gurgaon. I have heard good things about them from several people, and intend patronising them for at least one of the Fiats. I visited their new set-up here in Gurgaon, was impressed, and got good vibes from the Manager Mr. Rawat.. Give them a go man.

Thank you for the suggestion! I don't mind driving to Gurgaon to get the car checked provided they have people that understand what they are doing, and do what they understand. I searched for Mr. Rawat's contact details but couldn't find it easily. Will it be possible for you to PM it? Else, I will spend some more time on Google.

PS: Do you stand and get servicing/repairs done right in front of your eyes? Because if you don't this sort of crap is likely to go down. What is good about both DRS and even Torque in Gurgaon (though the latter still has someway to improve), is that they are small-ish operations that enable direct supervision/briefing/debriefing, as also building some kind of a longer-term 'relationship' with SAs, mechanics, and the manager.. Maybe Kashyap is too damn big for proper supervision and QC of the servicing?!)

I always do that during regular service but the frequency with which these issues are cropping up, it's impossible for me to take a day off on each visit.

I might be wrong in my assessment but I feel it's the 'fear' that works better than 'relationship', at least here in NCR. I purchased two cars from Oberoi Fiat, they sold another 4 to people I know. The GM and SAs used to greet and meet me, and I always met everyone with a smile and courteously (barring one incident). After a while I realised that they are taking my niceness for granted, and they perform better for customers that are rude and nasty with them. Same is the case with Kashyap. In all my interactions with them (in-person, emails, phone-calls) I remained calm and courteous. Result - I paid twice for the work that would have been done under extended/goodwill warranty for others. Anyway, enough of ranting. Will try this new FASS, and in the meantime continue my search for a competent mechanic outside of FASS.

[sidindica]

What a coincidence of seeing your update immediately after mine...looks like your car is getting screwed up again and again, you need to be stern on them to get the work done, just like I am on Oberoi.

[sandeepmohan]

Originally Posted by Biraj

Luckily, the shuddering issues happened in front of him,

Interesting. I have had this shudder issue from the time I filled the second tankful of gas. This shudder is more pronounced on hot summer days. Not otherwise. Another way to bring it up is after a good thrashing of the car. Let it idle and I can feel it. Its not a bad shudder but can be felt. My father, sitting in the front passenger seat has felt it too. The shudder can be seen under the hood too but its a very mild shake of the engine, every once in while. You have to pay close attention to notice it. Showed it to service. To their eyes, everything appears normal. In the noise and chaos of a service center, its really difficult to make the service engineer understand. ECU scan came clean. I gave up trying to fix the problem. The car runs great and has been delivering the economy it should.With this in mind, I don't want service to make matters worse. I've been through a cycle of new plugs and it made zero difference. The shudder shows up every once in a while. Oh and another thing, it is noticeable only when the aircon is non operational.

Here are some pics when I had a leaky gearbox. No oil dripped on the ground. It was just coated around the gearbox. No longer the case though.

[Biraj]

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

The shudder shows up every once in a while. Oh and another thing, it is noticeable only when the aircon is non operational.

Here are some pics when I had a leaky gearbox. No oil dripped on the ground. It was just coated around the gearbox. No longer the case though.

Do you mean, I just spent Rs 8800 and four days on a non-issue. Not sure if the nature of shudder that I was facing is similar to what you were facing. Let me describe the scenarios in detail:

1. In second gear, I decelerate to take a speed breaker the speed is down to 10-15 KMPH, when I press the accelerator again the RPM drops to ~400 and then shoots back to ~1100. After that it runs normally. During the drop it's like an anti-stall mechanism at work and the entire car shudders. It can be felt by all passengers and is in fact audible. The same happens in first gear at ~5-10 KMPH. Even in reverse gear if there is a slight incline at the back or if the surface is loose.

This issue has become much less perceptible after the change of plugs. The first gear shudder has become mild and the second gear and reverse gear shudders have almost become non-existent.

2. This happens in 3rd, 4th and 5th gears. Say the car is at ~1500 RPM and I am accelerating constantly. While moving through the RPM range of 1800-2000 there's a mild shudder that can only be felt by the driver. It seems to originate from under the car i.e. where my left foot is (when it's not resting on the foot-rest). Beyond 2000 RPM the car moves like a dream.

To counter these shudders I keep the car in higher revs. While I get ~14.5 KMPL on expressway, the city consumption has dropped to 8 KMPL from 9.5-10 KMPL.

About the gear-oil leak - It happened at a very low rate and never dripped to the ground. I haven't had the opportunity to check the leakage after getting the seal changed.

Is the turbo-whistle in your car audible? Mine has been audible from day 1 and was again told by GM of Kashyap Fiat (World-famous among Fiat fans in North, Mr. Sharma) that the turbo-whistle shouldn't be audible. Once a QA in another FASS had said the same and I remember checking with fellow T-jet owners at that point. We all had ridiculed the QA's knowledge of T-jet engine.

[stewie]

Hi Biraj,

I had a Palio 1.6 which had a similar issue with the RPM going below the normal idle limit.
The culprit turned out to the be the Air Intake valve thingamajig (the butterfly valve?).
Replacing it took care of the shuddering for me.

Dunno if your car has the same issue but seeing as it has the same FIAT 'Linea'age

Cheers and Happy Motoring,
Ravi