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Old 31st May 2020, 20:00   #181
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Default Re: GT'ing around in my VW Polo TSI UPDATE: Blackworks Double-Divorced Coolant-Circuit.. MO POWAH BA

Wouldn't a steel bottle be better off than a thermos flask? I understand that steel absorbs heat from engine bay and inturn heats up the coolant . But on the flip side, the thermos maintains the 36 odd degree of temperature for a few hours atleast. I am sure you must have given this a thought and decided on the thermos. .
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Old 1st June 2020, 01:16   #182
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Default Re: GT'ing around in my VW Polo TSI UPDATE: Blackworks Double-Divorced Coolant-Circuit.. MO POWAH BA

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Originally Posted by Dr.Naren View Post
It's really a great work. I have seen many tuners struggle to make good power with 1.2 TSI, thanks to super high IAT. This hack / engineering is working really well, thanks for all the hard data like IAT, Coolant temperature etc. I believe only thing to take care of is not to switch off the engine immediately after hard driving
Agreed!

But we have scheduled another logging session soon. Let's hope it works out!

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Originally Posted by Dr.Naren View Post
Suhaas, I have a doubt if Frank Mehta's Coolant cooler was actually a divorced circuit.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modif...my-gt-tsi.html (Upping the Cool quotient: Add-on Coolant Cooling system on my GT TSI!)
Could very well be!

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Originally Posted by sagarpadaki View Post
Wouldn't a steel bottle be better off than a thermos flask? I understand that steel absorbs heat from engine bay and inturn heats up the coolant . But on the flip side, the thermos maintains the 36 odd degree of temperature for a few hours atleast. I am sure you must have given this a thought and decided on the thermos. .
The thermos flask is essentially a steel bottle!

Actually, I must clarify that the thermos flask has pretty much lost its efficacy, much to my disappointment!

Reason: The bottom few inches of the flask comprise of several (sealed) layers that lend such thermos-flasks their ability to insulate their contents.

However, we have bored a hole in the bottom of this bottle, right through all the layers, essentially reducing the bottle's effectiveness as a thermos flask to nought.

And before anyone jumps at this, I must also clarify that we are aware the steel bottle will heat up its contents a little more than a plastic reservoir would. We want to log the car again and see if we need a solution for this. There are a couple of options we are open to considering based on the log results.
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Old 1st June 2020, 02:54   #183
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Default Re: GT'ing around in my VW Polo TSI UPDATE: Blackworks Double-Divorced Coolant-Circuit.. MO POWAH BA

You could use maybe something like the zalman reserator as a coolant bottle. It has a 2.5L capacity and already fitted with nipples for coolant to flow in and out. Probably won't be able to handle the flow rate though. You could also strap a CPU fan to a copper bottle also.
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Old 1st June 2020, 07:28   #184
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Default Re: GT'ing around in my VW Polo TSI. UPDATE: Make the GT great again! Cobra springs, SS catback exha

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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
The engineers at Volkswagen are not stupid. They knew exactly what they were doing when they engineered this motor. They may have left something on the table for the enthusiasts, but the real reason for this compromised system is cost!
I will not call this a compromised system at all. In my view, this is a brilliant system versus the standard IC system that relies on ambient air to cool down the charge. This car (or any car) was not designed to be driven WOT, all the time. There are purpose built cars for that. The occasional flooring of the right pedal will give you access to most of the power the engine can produced. For 99% of driving conditions, this system will do a better job than a air cooled IC. It should cost more to build and engineer this system versus an air only IC based system. That said, it is a one time R&D effort and cost after which you have a system that can work with a range of turbo charged engines.

The iconic 2004 Subaru Impreza WRX STI also used a water cooled IC but not anywhere as complicated as what VW have done. You basically hit a button on your dashboard that would spray the IC with water :-). The reservoir tank was located in the boot.

Wish I had taken the effort to sort out this heat soaking problem I had on my 2011 Linea T Jet. As I discovered much later and on reading others experiences on our forum, the stock IC was useless. I never understood what this was. All I knew was the engine felt starved of air on a hot day and it killed performance. Felt like the car had lost all its power.

Thanks for sharing. That is a lot of well thought out work being done on your car.
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Old 1st June 2020, 11:59   #185
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Default Re: GT'ing around in my VW Polo TSI UPDATE: Blackworks Double-Divorced Coolant-Circuit.. MO POWAH BA

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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
And before anyone jumps at this, I must also clarify that we are aware the steel bottle will heat up its contents a little more than a plastic reservoir would. We want to log the car again and see if we need a solution for this. There are a couple of options we are open to considering based on the log results.
IMHO, 'material of the container' hardly matters, when you have a dedicated heat-exchanger in the front grille, to dispose off the heat. I would rather suggest you stick to the steel bottle, atleast it is robust and leak free, without needing much space, plus having a nice 'neck' to help with mounting. In my books, this is better than placing a bulbous plastic thing in the location where you have put this up. If the seals of the inlet/outlet hold good for this current thing, leave it be.
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Old 1st June 2020, 14:52   #186
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Default Re: GT'ing around in my VW Polo TSI. UPDATE: Make the GT great again! Cobra springs, SS catback exha

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Originally Posted by Mortis View Post
You could use maybe something like the zalman reserator as a coolant bottle. It has a 2.5L capacity and already fitted with nipples for coolant to flow in and out. Probably won't be able to handle the flow rate though. You could also strap a CPU fan to a copper bottle also.
The fan would draw hot ambient air and blast it onto the copper bottle. Which would help...how? And compared to the radiator fan's 1000+ CFM, what would a piddly CPU fan do anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
I will not call this a compromised system at all. In my view, this is a brilliant system versus the standard IC system that relies on ambient air to cool down the charge. This car (or any car) was not designed to be driven WOT, all the time. There are purpose built cars for that. The occasional flooring of the right pedal will give you access to most of the power the engine can produced. For 99% of driving conditions, this system will do a better job than a air cooled IC. It should cost more to build and engineer this system versus an air only IC based system. That said, it is a one time R&D effort and cost after which you have a system that can work with a range of turbo charged engines.

The iconic 2004 Subaru Impreza WRX STI also used a water cooled IC but not anywhere as complicated as what VW have done. You basically hit a button on your dashboard that would spray the IC with water :-). The reservoir tank was located in the boot.

Wish I had taken the effort to sort out this heat soaking problem I had on my 2011 Linea T Jet. As I discovered much later and on reading others experiences on our forum, the stock IC was useless. I never understood what this was. All I knew was the engine felt starved of air on a hot day and it killed performance. Felt like the car had lost all its power.

Thanks for sharing. That is a lot of well thought out work being done on your car.
I think you've missed the point entirely. It is not a new revelation that this is an air to water system (well, most of it anyway). An air to water system is superior to air to air systems in terms of performance. It is the complexity and maintenance requirements that make it unattractive. However, there are now several modern cars, performance oriented or otherwise, which run air to water charge cooling systems. The B4 S4 and any other model and variant which have the 3L supercharged V6, the new 2.9 turbo V6, any modern BMW M product, any BMW product with the 4.4L V8... the list goes on. Hell, BMW went as far as adding water injection to the M4 CS.

And I do not agree that a car is not designed to run on WOT all the time. Any car worth their salt will be tested in extremes. Engines are tested by running them at WOT for hours on end. Cooling and oiling systems will be designed for that. Cars are compromised in terms of performance so that even the most hamfisted driver will not kill it as long as they confirm to the service intervals. At least, that's how things used to be before modern emissions regulations. Now with emissions regulations being what they are, engines with particulate filters will pretty much hit limp mode very very quickly when used in extremes.

In any case, we're looking at an engine design from the 80s repurposed to hit displacement related tax rebates. And evidently, every penny that can be pinched, has been pinched. Why else would they do this to save a few clips and a coolant reservoir? There is no explanation. The design is severely compromised by sending 85degC coolant into the W2A core.

Comparing an IC spray to a full water to air system is like comparing the effectiveness of a fire engine to pissing on the fire. It is not a "water cooled" intercooler in any sense of those words. It's a push button overboost that works for short periods of time.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 00:33   #187
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Default Re: GT'ing around in my VW Polo TSI UPDATE: Blackworks Double-Divorced Coolant-Circuit.. MO POWAH BA

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Originally Posted by suhaas307 View Post
Hi Venky,
...
Awesome mod Suhaas. The double divorced one. But one wondering I have is:
1. Now turbo shares the loop with engine . So doesn't that make the turbo run hotter than before because the coolant is now shared with engine as well?
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Old 2nd June 2020, 03:47   #188
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Default Re: GT'ing around in my VW Polo TSI. UPDATE: Make the GT great again! Cobra springs, SS catback exha

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Originally Posted by ImmortalZ View Post
An air to water system is superior to air to air systems in terms of performance. It is the complexity and maintenance requirements that make it unattractive.
I don't remember saying the air to water system was a ineffective or a new approach. Am well aware that it has been around for well over a decade. I said it was better to an air to air system.

You have to remember that nobody ever lifts the hood on their cars these days. Heck; I've seen folks run their cars for 2 years without an oil change. To introduce more check points on a car isn't ideal. It is different compared to us folks trying to extract more out of the engine.

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Originally Posted by ImmortalZ View Post
And I do not agree that a car is not designed to run on WOT all the time.
I stand by what I said. The cooling and lubrication systems on a VW Polo GT Tsi isn't anywhere remotely close to what is engineered for, say an Audi S5. They are two very different cars.

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Originally Posted by ImmortalZ View Post
The design is severely compromised by sending 85degC coolant into the W2A core.
Agreed and a question that needs to go to the engineers at VW on why they chose this approach. There will be reason but I doubt if that reason was to save a few dollars, considering they already spend a lot in designing and building a complex air to water system.

VW could have picked a better place for the charge air cooler but that will require longer plumbing which you probably don't want. We don't know the reason for the existing layout.

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Originally Posted by ImmortalZ View Post
Comparing an IC spray to a full water to air system is like comparing the effectiveness of a fire engine to pissing on the fire.
I was not comparing the two systems. I was just highlighting another solution that was tried by another manufacturer a long time ago.

Last edited by sandeepmohan : 2nd June 2020 at 04:00.
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