[syravi]

To fit after market CNG kits or not in Jazz or any other car?
Busting myths with solid technological reasons, indepth research & personal experiences


This is a bit longish article. And I will digress by going first into my experience with both after market fitted CNGs and Company fitted CNGs. This is because many users like me feel that CNG kits run ‘fine’ up to a certain point and then all kind of troubles crop up.
My experience with both after market and company fitted kits with Maruti Cars

After market fitted kit
I fitted my Maruti 800 with a brand new BRC kit which was the top brand at that time from one of the top CNG fitment guys. For 20,000 kilometers things went fine. I saved a lot of money and was congratulating myself for making the bold decision.

Nightmare of expenses and loss of peace of mind begins

After 20,000 kms things started falling apart. It was always a cylinder missing, car going out of tune and so many problems that it was a nightmare for me to shunt between the petrol guys and the CNG guys who both blamed each other for the problems I was facing. Naturally no solutions seemed to be coming.

Hit and trial suggestions by mechanics without technological knowledge – burning a hole in pocket and running on a wild chase of possible solutions.

Among the problem solving things that I went through at great cost were – Frequent change of spark plugs, even considered iridium spark plugs (but a timely research proved they made minimal or no difference), change of alternator because to quote the mechanic: ‘the current required by CNG kits is higher.’ I also ended with a new radiator, change of fan belts (according to mechanics: “The engine was heating up as CNG produces more heat”), 3 types of coolants – again for better cooling, a new, higher ampere battery (same argument – CNG kits need higher currents), change of ignition coils. All these over a period of 5 years in which every month or so I would spend time, energy and money on the workshops.

End of the nightmare – Chosing a factory fitted CNG car from Maruti stable – Wagon R

When my job required me to commute to Gurgaon from Delhi, I knew this car would let me down on the highway for sure. So I sold my Maruti 800 but not before I milked 50K from the kit. Yes I saved a lot of money but my precious Sundays and Saturdays were spent at garages.

Since the commute distance was 70 kms both way for 5 days a week and I did not like diesel cars, I settled for company fitted Wagon R CNG. Petrol was not an option. The dealer assured me that Maruti had taken care of all the troubles that CNG kits give and this factory fitted car runs like a petrol car. On the test drive I really found the claim to be true and bought the car.

Every day while driving I would wonder at the beauty of the engine. It was amazing and never did I feel any lag, any miss from the CNG kit. It was super efficient and fantastic.

I used to get my car serviced by Maruti Owned service station at Naraina and they were very good.

Trouble again after 40,000 kms

Things were fine and then at 40,000 kms I felt the engine was dragging and losing its power. The car felt heavy and shitty and I got worried. It looked that engine had lost half its power and I thought maybe all those guys who said that CNG corroded the engine because it was dry were probably right.

The engine started missing too and out of tune. I was at Gurgaon and since it looked like trouble I went to a local shop and he tinkered a bit and made the problem worse. I came to know for the first time that company fitted CNGs cannot and should not be tuned by local workshops.

Finally, stumbling upon the mystery of 2 CNG filters

I checked the car for service and after service too, the car did not feel right. I went through the service manuals and was surprised. It said there were 2 CNG filters apart from the air filter which should have been changed.

It said two things:
CNG REDUCER FILTER CARTRIDGE WITH O RING TO BE REPLACED at 40,000!
CNG LOW PRESSURE FILTER CARTRIDGE WITH O RING TO BE REPLACED at 20,000, 40,000, 60,000, 80,000 and 1 lac Kms!

None of that was done, even at one of the best service centre owned by Maruti! It shows the complete lack of awareness! I met the manager of the service department at Naraina and he said there was no point in changing the filters. According to him no one changes it and in so many years they have not changed these filters for a single car. In other words he was asking me to adjust to the new low performance of the car by pushing the accelerator harder. I was not convinced and asked him if the parts were available. He said he would have to get them. Both filters would cost 4K to me. It was quite a bit but I ordered them.

It took 4 weeks for them to get the first filter which is before the reducer (the UFO kind of chamber where the gas is mixed with air before inletting into the engine).

Magic happens after the first filter replacement.

When I got back my car after the filter replacement I could believe the performance I was getting. My car was as good as new. I was delighted. I asked the manager when will the second filter come? This filter is inside the reducer and is much more complicated to replace. He asked me did I really need it since my car was good and I said yes.

At home I used a hammer to smash the old filter and guess what I saw in it? Oil and it was dirty. I knew somehow it was clogging my CNG kit.

The second filter too dramatically changed the performance of my car. When I got the old filter back it was full of dirt and smelled very bad. Even that too was oily.

Researching the internet

I decided to google for what I was seeing. I typed oil presence in CNG filter and the result was a link to a pdf. It gave me the shock of my life! Here is what it said:

Natural gas used for vehicular application and delivered from a CNG fueling station must be free of any solid material, water or oil. The heart of the natural gas fueling station is the compressor and most compressors require lubrication (oil). Over time, it is impossible to prevent some amount of the lubricant from leaking into the fuel stream. Specific equipment, called a coalescing filter, is designed to remove any liquid or solid contaminate in the high-pressure natural gas. They need to be installed downstream of the compression system, before the compressed natural gas enters the time-fill or high pressure storage system, as well as on-board the vehicle’s fuel system, to ensure that oil does not get into the on-board fuel storage cylinders and ultimately into the engine.


So the culprit in this case was not air but the compressor installed at CNG stations. The oil from compressor would invariably mix with CNG and get inside the filter and to some extent the engine too. The damage, the pdf said could be huge for the engine and even the CNG kit. It could damage the solenoids of the CNG kit too! So it was not just a matter of performance. It was a matter of protecting CNG kit and the engine that the CNG filters should be replaced periodically.

No where in the net is the complete finding mentioned, so I have taken pains to write this article. So guys it is not the CNG which will pull your engine down, it is the oil of the CNG station compressor that will take your car down, if you don’t change the filters regularly!

Without a second doubt, I got the second filter changed. I had to chase them for a week, constantly before they finally said they have the part in the store. I changed this part and the performance of my car is even better! This particular filter was open for me to see. It had a spring and paper/cloth filter and the paper was clogged with dirt and very smelly. I paid Rs. 1480 this time.

I drove my Wagon R CNG for 8 years before selling it at a great price. The guy at Cars24 who spent 2 hours trying to find flaws with my car had one remark to say in the end: Your car is in remarkable condition! I got 2.36 lacs for a car I bought for 5.5 lacs after a very high usage!

No outside CNG kit Fitter Provides these 2 filters in any of the kits!

I could have continued to use my Wagon R but sold it because my son who bought Honda Jazz V got placed abroad and wanted me to use his car. It was just 4 year old and selling it would have meant taking a huge hit. I was hesitant because it did not have a CNG kit. But since I was now retired, I sold my Wagon R and took to Jazz V, automatic.

Jazz V Automatic is Amazing
My knee had started troubling a bit on Wagon R and Jazz automatic was truly luxurious and amazing, It felt very comfortable and plush compared to Wagon R in every sense

Jazz V – Ouch Petrol Price hurts!
While I was paying just 2500 for a commute of 2200 kms from Delhi to Gurgaon and back with Wagin R CNG I am now paying nearly2000 for a commute of just 500-600 kms in winters and more in summers. Of course Gurgaon drive was on a highway and now it is mostly city traffic. Still the mileage hurts and I thought of fitting an after market kit again.

My search for a kit with filters – All assurances on performance but no filters

I checked and checked and checked but no CNG fitter in Delhi was fitting the filter before the reducer. They had no spares and no way they could get them. One or two said they could fit a filter before the reducer but the way they said it was unsure. Besides they would be making an exception just for me. And there was no guarantee how it would affect the performance because their kits were running good without a pre-filter.

Say no without these filters and their replacement
Without these filters and their replacement the oil from CNG compressors will ultimately clog your CNG kit first and then damage your car engine. So please, don’t go for these after market kits. They will run well for 30-40k kms and after that it will be oil which will start causing much of the damage many of the users are feeling.

My decision - Not to go for after market fitted CNG kits
Even though I am not happy paying the cost of petrol, I have decided not to go for an after market CNG kit. I was tempted to believe the words of the fitment guys but when I googled the complaints were numerous and I have decided to use my Jazz minus CNG. If the drive becomes unaffordable, I will sell it and buy a company fitted CNG but that too has a downside to it. It wont have be an automatic and my knees can no longer work the clutch like they used to.

No automatic car is being fitted with a CNG kit
Maruti is a CNG pioneer and has a huge range of automatic cars but none of the models are fitted with CNG kits. The conclusion is obvious. The combination is not successful and should not be attempted.

No 4 cylidner car is being fitted with a CNG kit

None of the 4 cylinder cars of Maruti have a factory fitted CNG kit. This clearly means that the kit is not so successful in 4 cylinder cars. I have yet to see how they are fitting these after market kits in buses which have 6 cylinders and if they have filters installed. Havent gone into it because it is outside my scope.

Myths surrounding CNG

My use of a factory fitted CNG car for 8 years confirms these facts which are available on internet
• CNG does not cause any damage because it is a dry fuel
• CNG does not corrode the engine
• CNG does not affect engine life
• CNG does not need higher current
• CNG does not need irridum spark plugs
• CNG does not need special after market filters

Facts
• CNG requires timely replacement of 2 CNG filters. The outside filter should be replaced after 20 K and the reducer filter should be replaced after 40k.
• CNG is a clean fuel and more efficient than petrol
• CNG fitment is a matter of precision and lot of cars have caught fire because the fitment was bad
• People driving CNG cars should not drink or smoke inside their cars. Both alcohol and cigarette smoke can hide the CNG gas smell in case it leaks. A lit up cigarette can act as a lighter for leaking CNG gas and may cause explosion.
• The costliest of the kits will fail beyond 40K if they are used without CNG filter replacements as a part of service routine
• The engine can be damaged by the oil that seeps from the reducer into the engine through the CNG gas and air mixture
• Air filter should be changed in CNG kits every 10k kms even if they look good
• Spark plugs should be changed after 20K kms even if they look good.

[Raghu M]

That is a very good thread sir. Thank you for the information, I was having more or less the same opinion on these after market fits. I had one in my old Maruti 800 and it was terrible.

[Sanidhya mukund]

Thank you for this informative post. It is very useful for people who NEED CNG due to their high running but are unable to decide due to a lack of options. For my next car purchase to replace the secondary car, automatic is a must have and CNG would be an added bonus (have to commute nearly 100 KM on some days).
Many people tend to look for aftermarket options because factory fitted options are presently only offered by Maruti and Hyundai. Hope Tata and Skoda come up with their rumoured CNG models soon.

However, just a small correction- there are indeed some models that have factory fitted CNG on 4 cylinder engines. Maruti Ertiga, Dzire Tour and Hyundai’s entire CNG range are some examples.

[revvharder]

I would like to suggest you to see the video below as you may have been provided with wrong information. The below video shows that Lovato has CNG filters in these two kits, also the owner himself drives an AT City with a CNG kit.

https://youtu.be/BpQPZHr5asY

[GTO]

Great thread, so helpful! Thanks for sharing. Will go to our homepage this week .

BHPian Schneller had also started an excellent CNG thread (The future of CNG in India) recently, which is a must-read discussion.

[aaggoswami]

Originally Posted by syravi

[b]I also ended with a new radiator, change of fan belts

Nice thread !
Maruti has three cars with 4 cylinder engines with factory fitted CNG kits : Maruti Ertiga, Dzire Tour and Eeco. Dzire Tour and Ertiga are having K-series engine, while Eeco is running on predecessor of K-series that is G-series.

Maruti 800 had fan belt ? I guess it was an 80W motor later on it was changed to 120W after few complaints.

Having used CNG vehicles, I ensured my factory fitted CNG wagon R had all filters replaced as per manual. Helped me run the car long without loss in efficiency. CNG cylinder will need to be tested at authorized test centers every three years. Testing centers must be PESO approved I guess. Once approved, the car has to have the certificate usually in form of a small metal tag riveted on car body. In case of factory fitted Maruti kits where CNG filling is done next to usual petrol filling, the metal tag should be above the filler cap for easy reference. I made mistake of fitting under the hood near radiator.

CNG kits have come quite a long way, earlier we had opted for closed loop which then had to be converted into open loop as closed loop never functioned properly. Even I have spent on spark plugs without any gains.

[bansal.sushant]

Thanks for this thread, it was helpful.

However, I do feel that you might be coming from some bias.

There are many people here vouching for CNG and they have had their cars run much more than 40k KMs (some even 1L + KMs). Check this thread: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...cng-india.html (The future of CNG in India).

I myself have an aftermarket CNG kit (without a filter) fitted in our Dzire. It was fitted from a dealer recommended mechanic, and we perform regular maintenance checks.

The car has run some 80K KMs on CNG over 10 years, and apart from some minor repairs here and there - I haven't seen any major issue.

If opting for CNG, I will definitely prefer factory fitted CNG, but that does not mean that aftermarket is not an option at all.

[kunalghogle]

Thank you for this thread.
Installing CNG in my punto has given me complete peace of mind from the ever increasing fuel prices.
With regular maintenance and sedate driving it is a very reliable fuel option especially a more economical one even if you consider the engine oil top up/spark plug changes required.

[ArTigor]

We had a CNG Ertiga Vxi factory fitted for about 2.5 years, we sold it off with 36000 km on the odo. We had bought Ertiga because of frequent travel to our native plave which was once in a month which was 1000 km in addition to the monthly urban running of 1000 km. My family size being 7 pax and Dad not prefering diesels we thought of giving CNG a try. First year was good with a lot of savings but only later did we realise that a family of 7 coupled with 1.4 L petrol motor and add to that CNG is not a good combination. First time in my Dads 30+ years of car ownership we had engine heating issue, Clutch gave up at 25000 km(7 people stranded mid night on highway), and after that the car felt always underpowered, all service schedules were strictly adhered to.
Thats when one of my cousins who was with an OEM, told me you should have got a diesel for these kind of long runs, and get rid of this car.

On the other side-

A colleage of mine who had an Ertiga CNG used it for 5 years and 1.5 lakh km before selling it off for around 5.5 lakh rupees, the car was mint even after 5 years of usage.

Another colleage had got a CNG kit fitted on Manza, within 2 years the rear suspension went kaput, and after 3 years he did an engine overhaul. Finally sold it barely using the car for 2000 km after overhaul, dont know what was the wrong decision getting overhauled or selling after overhaul.

On the other side a colleague of mine has an after market CNG kit fitted on his 2010 AT Accord, the kit was fitted probably when the vehicle had run 55000 km. Today the vehicle has completed 85000 km and is doing completely fine.

So I guess CNG fitting is a gamble especially the aftermarket ones.
Factory fitted ones are more reliable ones in todays context with the 5&6 year warranties offered by all auto manufacturers.

In addition to the filters, Something that is critical with after market CNG kit fitting is suspension strengthening/tweaking, if it is not done properly driving dynamics can go for a toss, Factory fitted ones anyways come with tweaked suspensions hence not a matter of concern.

[ash22]

Thanks Much for the heads-up. This is such an eye opener thread for me personally.
I'm in plans to install CNG for my 14 year old Alto 800 since we are planning for a bigger car for family primary use and this Alto CNG would replace my wife's Activa for her office commutes. I think, I need to revisit this decision now.
Once again, thanks much for all the knowledge sharing.

[turbodude]

Originally Posted by syravi

My use of a factory fitted CNG car for 8 years confirms these facts which are available on internet
• CNG does not cause any damage because it is a dry fuel
• CNG does not corrode the engine
• CNG does not affect engine life
• CNG does not need higher current
• CNG does not need irridum spark plugs
• CNG does not need special after market filters

Super thanks buddy for the article . My friend is looking for a CNG car and I had absolutely nothing to guide him as I drive a petrol car. Another friend who already has a CNG car felt helpless as he is not technically sound and a normal user. We just could not answer the queries.

I was searching for good articles on CNG usage from a month or so and my friend was getting restless. Today we both can sleep peacefully.

[KkVaidya]

I had fitted a BrC CNG kit on my '06 Alto LXi at around 47.000kms. It ran beautifully till close to 1,00,000kms after which I could feel loss of power especially with AC and 4 passengers.
I would give a Thumbs up for factory fitted CNG vehicles if the sole criteria is fuel economy. Other then that, CNG is a strict No-No.

[Herschey]

We recently parted with two of our cars, a 2013 Swift VDI and a 2006 Santro Xing XO. The Santro got a Tomasetto Achille aftermarket CNG kit fitted back in 2011 on the recommendation of one of my friend who had one installed on his Palio Stile Sport 1.6. Being his daily driver car, the 1.6 Palio had an abysmal mileage but the CNG fitment used to save him a lot of money on a daily basis. While I wasn't too keen on experimenting with my regular drive at the time, I decided to experiment with the CNG on our Santro which had incidentally just got out of warranty.

The Santro had already completed around 39k kilometers when the CNG kit was installed. The installation was done pretty neatly and was duly endorsed on the registration papers of the car. It had completed a mere 79k kms when we sold it this February and it ran as beautifully as the day we got her home. About its performance on CNG, the drop in power or pick up was only noticeable with the air conditioner switched on and that too in stop and go or slow moving traffic, more so during peak summer season. It was practically non-existent over long or highway drives. Santro isn't a fast car but it's a nippy little go-kart of sorts and the CNG conversion didn't kill that particular characteristic.

As with anything mechanical, CNG requires periodic maintenance along with the regular servicing. We ensured regular servicing even while the car was rarely used. All mandatory checks like the cylinder hydrotest, injector cleaning, reducer servicing etc. were all conducted periodically. The only thing that was ever replaced in the kit was the lambda sensor which went kaput after an engine bay cleanup using a high pressure washer at the service center messed it up. I always recommend against pressure washing the engine bay anyways. Another thing we used to follow was to avoid using CNG for ultra short runs of upto 2 kms or less than 10 minutes (whichever the case be) and occasionally use the car solely on petrol as well. We follow the 5 minute idle rule on cold starts and that does help any car in the long run. We were getting about 200 kms on around 9 kgs of CNG with the airconditioning on and about 240 kms without it with the same amount of gas which was as good as riding a motorcycle. In fact, my RC390 gives only between 24-28 per liter and is much more expensive to run than the Santro. The car's engine till the end was butter smooth and the dealer who bought it was pretty surprised at the condition the car was in. The only thing that called for a replacement in the car was the driver's side seat cover (the rest of the seat covers were as good as new) which had developed a few cracks at the base but that was all about it. The dealer was able to sell the car the very same evening he bought it from us.

The car stayed with us for a full 15 years and never gave us a single reason to complain. It had the best build quality in its category for it's time and it really aged well. The CNG conversion was also a pleasant experience, so much so that I became an ardent proponent to the cause of CNG vehicles. The only thing that needs attention with an aftermarket CNG installation is to get it installed from a good installer, get an all new and good quality kit installed, and get it tuned by an expert (this is the most critical bit). And if one has the option of buying a factory fitted CNG version, go for it eyes closed. It's a decision you won't ever regret.

We have recently replaced our Swift with a NIOS CNG and would soon be getting a replacement for the Santro as well. I haven't driven the NIOS much but whatever little I drove (about 20 odd kms or so), it's a smooth engine with ample performance to chug one around in reasonable comfort through all the speedcams and the 50/60 kmph speed limit in Delhi.

[WanderinNomad]

Originally Posted by syravi

To fit after market CNG kits or not in Jazz or any other car?
Busting myths with solid technological reasons, indepth research & personal experiences


This is a bit longish article. And I will digress by going first into my experience with both after market fitted CNGs and Company fitted CNGs. This is because many users like me feel that CNG kits run ‘fine’ up to a certain point and then all kind of troubles crop up.
My experience with both after market and company fitted kits with Maruti Cars

After market fitted kit
I fitted my Maruti 800 with a brand new BRC kit which was the top brand at that time from one of the top CNG fitment guys. For 20,000 kilometers things went fine. I saved a lot of money and was congratulating myself for making the bold decision.

Nightmare of expenses and loss of peace of mind begins

After 20,000 kms things started falling apart. It was always a cylinder missing, car going out of tune and so many problems that it was a nightmare for me to shunt between the petrol guys and the CNG guys who both blamed each other for the problems I was facing. Naturally no solutions seemed to be coming.

Hit and trial suggestions by mechanics without technological knowledge – burning a hole in pocket and running on a wild chase of possible solutions.

I have just installed after market CNG in my car and I am now a little scared.
However, I have two points to add.

1 All lovato kits come with a filter. I am attaching the brochure of the kit easily available in the market which will clarify the same. Hence, if you are going for a Lovato kit, you can be free from worry.
I think you can install a Lovato kit easily in your Jazz automatic although it will cost you 5k-10k extra as compared to other kits.

2 I have installed an Msequent Kit in my car and this brand is owned by Mijo which is an Indian company. Even this brand manufactures CNG filters but does not supply them in their kits. I am attaching the webpage for your reference.
I can consider getting these filters installed in my kit from a reputed CNG installer.



[ATTACH=171024-112323-Flyer_Smart ExR_CNG_10_2017_EN_web.pdf]2136631[/ATTACH]

https://mijoautogas.co.in/cng-components.htm

Also, Since you have mentioned that most of the installers in delhi are not willing to install a kit with filter, I think this is more to do with the nature of CNG fitment business in India. What I mean is that aftermarket CNG fitment in India is a highly unorganized business with the installers having zero knowledge about the technicalities. However, I can suggest you two people who know the technicalities of CNG fitment.
Mr Pramod - Easy Drive CNG Ghaziabad - He has a utube channel by the same name.
EVO CNG Gurgaon. ( again refer his utube channel )

Furthermore the kits today have advanced than the Wagon R/ Maruti kits.
You will have to take care of some other parameters like-
-OBD2 connection
-coupler to coupler installation
You can go through my post in CNG conversion thread to bring you up to date.

Since you have a lot of experience in CNG, I would advise you to meet either of the above two people before deciding that your Jazz automatic should not be converted to CNG.

[syravi]

Originally Posted by revvharder

I would like to suggest you to see the video below as you may have been provided with wrong information. The below video shows that Lovato has CNG filters in these two kits, also the owner himself drives an AT City with a CNG kit.

https://Youtu.be/BpQPZHr5asY

Thanks for this information. What remains to be checked is whether the CNG fitment centre will continue to provide the CNG filter after every 20K kilometers. And I checked that this filter is only available for Lovato OBD2 kit and not the Lovato normal kit. Also, the filter inside the reducer is still not available for any of the kits. Maruti company fitted cars provide a filter replacement for reducer to and recommends it be changed every 40K. So the complete picture is still not there and this can make the whole thing still a gamble. Gamble in the sense if you are lucky to get your Gas filled by a centre which has no leaking lubricants from the CNG compressor your car will survive. If not then sooner or later you will be in for problems.