Team-BHP - Tuning Box versus Remaps (Diesel tuning)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by GTO (Post 1600028)

I'd choose the box over a remap, especially for premium cars, since its simpler, plug & play and can be removed within minutes (useful for when the car is going in for a service etc.). Plus, you could always sell it at a later stage. Germans have complex electronics to start with; I'd never want to mess with them.

In the current scenario, do you still recommend tuning boxes over a remap?

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTO (Post 1600033)

5.Powerbox = You can go back to stock whenever you want. What is the procedure for getting back to standard ECU tune after a remap?

8.There have been times when a dealer will simply reset your ECU at the time of some major work or a manufacturers “silent install of a new ECU tune”. Translated = your ECU is back to stock. What is the cost of a re-remaping (there, I just invented a new term)?

9.Warranty claims : X5india hasn’t made a warranty claim on his engine. Period. If & when he does, be assured that BMW will thoroughly study his engine and know that it’s been remapped in a matter of minutes. It is NOT difficult to locate a remap when you want to. Remaps either overwrite manufacturer data or reside on an empty part of the chip. Manufacturers have VERY strict procedures before clearing warranty claims. And BMW does know their own car a little better than any aftermarket supplier would.

True. Iam sliding towards the tuning box, esp for the 5 & 9th points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren (Post 4168448)

ECU Remap Vs Tuning Box : Myths & Facts

Tuning Box :

It could be single channel or multi channel boxes. Most of the boxes are rail pressure modulation type. Another type is injector pulse width modulation. Few tuning boxes like RD dual channel box control both rail pressure and turbo boost.

We all know that or have read about it several times that a tuning box makes power by "fooling" the ECU. Yes, it's correct. Most of the sensors are rated from 0 to 5V. Tuning box manipulates the voltage and sends wrong values to the ECU to inject more fuel. It's a simple tech and nothing complicated. More fuel = More power!!

I have seen many argue that tuning box is not as safe as remap. Well, it's not actually true. Remap is much more complicated and I will get into that later. Yes, the tuning box would increase the rail pressure / turbo boost (but within the limiters set in ECU maps) and put more stress on the components. But, what many don't know is : The factory stock limiters (max turbo boost, max rail pressure etc) set in the ECU are not altered with tuning box.

Power delivery in a tuning box couldn't be controlled to the level of good remap. There might be few spikes in power delivery. Also, with a tuning box you can't delete EGR etc.

ECU Remap :

ECU remap is much more complicated process. There are hundreds of maps in the ECU. Finding the right maps and making precise changes is really not that easy unless you develop the tune on a dyno. I have hardly seen any custom remap guys in India "develop" their maps on dyno. Recently I have heard that Code 6 tuning is developing / perfecting the tune on various cars at Spitfire Dyno.

Thanks a lot for simple and detailed explanation. Wish this to be pinned post on a related modifications topic :thumbs up

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surprise (Post 4391968)

Thanks a lot for simple and detailed explanation. Wish this to be pinned post on a related modifications topic :thumbs up

I would say tuning box or remap depends on the car which you would like to mod. Tuning box is a very good option for cars which are hardly remapped, premium cars and for people who are very much concerned about warranty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surprise (Post 4391968)

In the current scenario, do you still recommend tuning boxes over a remap?

No, the game has moved on. For my brother's Jetta, I chose the remap option. My 530d might also be remapped, but only in 2020 after the warranty expires. Tuning boxes are passé IMHO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren (Post 4391970)

Post warranty however the car running a tuning box is more likely to have problems than a car running a full on remap. A remap is optimized on a per car/engine basis while a tuning box is a shoehorned solution that is neither here nor there. They primarily cause the engine to run much richer than normal and in turn cause carbon/soot buildup in the block which causes much more wear long term. I know of quite a few diesel elantras that were scrapped/sold as the engine required a complete overhaul due to them tuning boxes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reignofchaos (Post 4392205)

A remap is optimized on a per car/engine basis while a tuning box is a shoehorned solution that is neither here nor there.

Not all remaps, I would say only a good remap / tune. I have seen lot of tuned files from custom remapping guys in India, it is nothing great. All they do is increase the injector opening duration in diesel cars :Frustrati.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTO (Post 4392169)

No, the game has moved on. For my brother's Jetta, I chose the remap option. My 530d might also be remapped, but only in 2020 after the warranty expires. Tuning boxes are passé IMHO.

Tuning boxes still have their market and are definitely not obsolete. Very highly reputed BMW tuning houses AC Schnitzer and Hartge still sells tuning boxes (Pulse width not cheap rail pressure) for BMW diesels and they are a lot more expensive. I think SB makes some boxes for Hartge (not sure) which runs Hartge spec tune.

Remaps are definitely better if its a factory remap like Polestar or BMW performance upgrade kit (they change ECU). Third party remaps if bought from reputed tuning houses will be as good.

Both have their own markets and will continue to co-exist; and depending upon the research and money the customer puts into the make over he will end up with a great product or a crappy product.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTO (Post 4392169)

No, the game has moved on. For my brother's Jetta, I chose the remap option. My 530d might also be remapped, but only in 2020 after the warranty expires. Tuning boxes are passé IMHO.

Tuning boxes are still a good option for some cars whose ECUs have not been cracked. Also some tuning boxes are pretty advanced now, and in some cases almost as good as maps. While a map is a best option, there are some cases a box makes more sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankar (Post 4392239)

Tuning boxes still have their market and are definitely not obsolete.

Both have their own markets and will continue to co-exist; and depending upon the research and money the customer puts into the make over he will end up with a great product or a crappy product.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akshay1234 (Post 4392248)

True!!

A very advanced tuning box (say it can control various parameters) would be equal to a good remap. But the power gains are generally more in remap because the various safety limiter maps can be tweaked :)

Any tuning options for Tata engines especially Hexa 400 NM.
One of my friend is looking for it and adapt Box or remaps whichever suits to T.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren (Post 4392260)

True!!

A very advanced tuning box (say it can control various parameters) would be equal to a good remap. But the power gains are generally more in remap because the various safety limiter maps can be tweaked :)

This also depends on the engine and the type of box(es) used. Some tuners use boxes for racing and remap for road. Some don't even need factory ECU to run the engine (so it can sit in a corner operating needles and lights grabbing on to its limiters :D) There is no hard and fast rule than one is better over the other, both can be awesome or sloppy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aks_karthik (Post 4392264)

Any tuning options for Tata engines especially Hexa 400 NM.
One of my friend is looking for it and adapt Box or remaps whichever suits to T.

I don't think remap is available yet for Hexa. Race dynamics should be having tuning box.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankar (Post 4392284)

Some don't even need factory ECU to run the engine (so it can sit in a corner operating needles and lights grabbing on to its limiters :D) There is no hard and fast rule than one is better over the other, both can be awesome or sloppy.

rl:

And we both have tried remap and tuning box together in our cars lol:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren (Post 4392329)

rl:

And we both have tried remap and tuning box together in our cars lol:

That was common rail box, was fun :D. The one I had in mind was a box which can work as a standalone if required.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akshay1234 (Post 4392248)

Also some tuning boxes are pretty advanced now, and in some cases almost as good as maps

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren (Post 4392260)

A very advanced tuning box (say it can control various parameters) would be equal to a good remap.

Just to get an idea, what are those various parameters & any vendors in India upto that standard?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surprise (Post 4392389)

Just to get an idea, what are those various parameters & any vendors in India upto that standard?

They are not available for many common Indian cars. For those concerned about warranty and want better mid range performance, RD dual channel box is a good option.

If you are willing to spend more, Unichip is great option too. Sankar has got 567 NM torque with Unichip in his Crysta. Again it depends on the car and Unichip compatibility / support.

You can make good power if you have control over parameters like Injector opening duration, rail pressure, turbo boost, A pedal sensor etc.

Talk about parameters, let me tell what's changed by remap in my S-Cross :)

1. Drivers wish map : tweaked for better throttle response, also this map has to be tweaked according to the max torque requested in other maps. If not it will act as a limiter.

2. Torque limiter maps : The torque is limited to 420 NM in my car. But it doesn't mean the car would be doing 420, it won't be doing more than that for sure.

3. AFR : This is just wonderful. The car is running richer than stock obviously.

4. Turbo boost : The peak figures are not increased much. But the max boost is being held for longer revv band.

5. Gear based torque limiters maps : First and second gears had crazy limiters by Suzuki. Lifting these limiters helped a lot in 0-100 timing.

6. Few other safety limiter maps were tweaked accordingly to make sure that they work in harmony with other maps where more torque is requested.

7. EGR Off

And my car is running on stock rail pressure, engine timing maps are not touched too.. Still it made lot of power, 0-100 in 7.9 seconds, top speed unlocked and what not :D.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren (Post 4392393)

You can make good power if you have control over parameters like Injector opening duration, rail pressure, turbo boost, A pedal sensor etc.

As you know the pedal sensor doesn't have any role to play in power increase in Unichip. It was enabled in the original tune when i bought it. I have removed it.

I am using throttle modifier for a sort-of-immobiliser map now, which locks the throttle at idle. Useful when parking at places without security. I change the map to this throttle lock map using my phone over bluetooth and it stays locked till I use the app to change to another map. Engine will start, pressing throttle won't do nothing. Even with the app installed another phone cannot pair to the BT since the code is unique.

I can switch between three maps with ECO and PWR buttons.These three maps are 180WHP (normal mode - no eco, no pwr), 214WHP (pwr button) and toyota's stock eco mode (eco button). Two other maps can be selected using phone and these two are lock maps (since they need phone to select and once set needs phone to change back) are throttle lock and valet (in progress). Or if the vehicle needs to be locked in standard map which will not be changed by switching ECO/PWR/Normal modes that can be done too and in this case ECO/PWR button will behave just like a stock Crysta. Can be done through phone.

Timing can be done and was one of the things being modified in the original tune I got with Unichip. I have kept it stock in my dynoed tune. Next dyno run will be a tune with timing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren (Post 4392393)

And my car is running on stock rail pressure, engine timing maps are not touched too.. Still it made lot of power, 0-100 in 7.9 seconds, top speed unlocked and what not :D.

Awaiting dyno figures since last year :D
I'm sure it will be great, but want to see potential.