[ArizonaJim]

"The horrors of fuel injection"?
I have seen almost no horrors of fuel injection happening to anyone who rides a fuel injected Royal Enfield reported. Yes, a very few people have had a problem with the fuel pump but those cases were on high mileage machines and I suspect they had been used with very dirty fuel or had been ridden many times with very little fuel in the tank. (The pump in all fuel injected vehicles uses the fuel for lubrication and cooling.) Then, there is also the issue with dead batteries. The pump needs electrical power before the engine is started to run the fuel pump and over the years on the forum I have noticed that many Indian riders totally ignore their battery maintenance.

On the plus side of things, a fuel injected engine starts easily, adjusts its air/fuel ratio depending on temperature and altitude, never needs adjusting (unless other parts of the motorcycle like the silencer was removed or changed to a straight thru kind).
It is as reliable as the fuel injection used on millions of cars and trucks.

When all is said and done, I would never want to go back to a carbonated engine on any of my vehicles.

[Balthazar]

Originally Posted by ArizonaJim

...

On the plus side of things, a fuel injected engine starts easily, adjusts its air/fuel ratio depending on temperature and altitude, never needs adjusting (unless other parts of the motorcycle like the silencer was removed or changed to a straight thru kind).
It is as reliable as the fuel injection used on millions of cars and trucks.

When all is said and done, I would never want to go back to a carbonated engine on any of my vehicles.

Agreed, living with an EFI system is just easier for the common motorist.
The only scenario in which a carb might be a better option would be if you want to be able to fiddle with the injector, experiment with the air/fuel mixture (not recommended for obvious reasons tho), or, more practically, you want to be able to repair the carb on the side of the road yourself in case of any issues, instead of waiting to get a pump and getting it installed in case of a pump failure.

But personally, while I do see some benefits in swapping out EFI for a carb, I wouldn't do it. Carbs require constant care and maintenance. With an EFI system, just need to ensure that the bike is not low on fuel for an extended period of time.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by tedha_ant

I want a 500cc classic but don't want to deal with horrors of the FI.

A Bullet 500 is cheaper than a C5, but if for some reason you wan't a carburetted C5 then that is possible, simply buy a C5 and scrap the EFI for a Carburetor, more than enough resources on the same available in Tbhp itself if I'm not wrong.

Originally Posted by Balthazar

Agreed, living with an EFI system is just easier for the common motorist.

The keyword being "common motorist".

The only scenario in which a carb might be a better option would be if you want to be able to fiddle with the injector, experiment with the air/fuel mixture (not recommended for obvious reasons tho)

Why?

I'm not sure if this isn't obvious but the reason our motorcycles are equipped with CV Carburetors and Air Boxes are to make motorcycles idiot-proof i.e as long as the owner doesn't go out of his/her way to do something baseless the system will work without any interference.

Carbs require constant care and maintenance.

Misinformation at best.

I currently own 2 motorcycles on which I clock a cumulative 20~30k km's a year.

One runs on a CV Carburetor and has cloced about 60k km's in over 5 years, the second one runs off a prehistoric Round Cable Slide Carburetor and has done 40k km's in under 3 years.

Two things that are common about both motorcycles are that;

1. Both run on Carburetors.
2. Both haven't had the carburetors come off the motorcycle to this day, infact neither has warranted any maintenance nor fiddling at any point.

Also to note is that I have not gone out of my way to maintain the said motorcycles, just the basics i.e turn fuel off when parking etc i.e the stuff mentioned in the owners manual regarding regular operation.

With the EFI system, you just need to make sure the bike is not run on low fuel for an extended period of time.

A Carbureted motorcycle doesn't have that requirement even, all it requires is that owners do not forgo commonsense and at least read the owners manual.

As for EFI's, you'd be surprised that they aren't as self reliant as most believe them to be, they run on multidimensional data that determine fueling based on a preset table, meaning if not set right they wouldn't run right just like Carburetors.

Only upside in being Electronic is that stringent controls can be excercised to make sure that all produced units run the same tables and that no one unnecessarily fiddles with it, but then again believing them to be the epitome of reliability is just lack of experience speaking cause fueling apart there are also specific type of ignition setups that compliment the system on your motorcycle.

Which again is another debate on its own, cause even though both my motorcycles run off carburetors they come with different igntion setups and one is just as reliable/unreliable as the EFI systems whereas as the other is practically bullet proof.

Anywho, more than enough information is out there on the internet and all is well as long as we verify facts over blindly following opinions.

Cheers,
A.P.

[Balthazar]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

The keyword being "common motorist".

Yes, what I was saying was from the common motorists perspective. All the points that followed were also made while keeping the average commuter in mind. An enthusiasts forum may not have been the best place for that

I currently own 2 motorcycles on which I clock a cumulative 20~30k km's a year.

One runs on a CV Carburetor and has cloced about 60k km's in over 5 years, the second one runs off a prehistoric Round Cable Slide Carburetor and has done 40k km's in under 3 years.

Two things that are common about both motorcycles are that;

1. Both run on Carburetors.
2. Both haven't had the carburetors come off the motorcycle to this day, infact neither has warranted any maintenance nor fiddling at any point.

Also to note is that I have not gone out of my way to maintain the said motorcycles, just the basics i.e turn fuel off when parking etc i.e the stuff mentioned in the owners manual regarding regular operation.

I was under the impression the carbs have to be cleaned every year, provided the bike has been used regularly. Because I was told that a dirty carb over time will lead to corrosion and degradation at worst, trouble getting the engine to turn over and a drop in mileage at best. Would you say I was advised incorrectly?

cause fueling apart there are also specific type of ignition setups that compliment the system on your motorcycle.

This point I couldn't understand. Could you please elaborate. I think what I gather from this is that some engine assemblies may favour a carb and others might favour EFI(would be logically, following from the way in which the engine was designed)?

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by Balthazar

Would you say I was advised incorrectly?

That is up to you to decide.

A carburetor is purely mechanical, suction from the piston going down pulls in air and fuel from the carburetor, the fuel flows into the carburetor from a pipe connected to the fuel tank with the help of gravity.

The fuel is stored in the float chamber of the carburator using a similar mechanism as used in our Toilet's Flush Tank i.e Valve Operated by a Float, that cuts fluid flow when the camber is full.

The fuel is sucked into the engine through ports which are modulated with the help of Jets i.e removable ports of various sizes.

Basically there are two circuits;

1. Idle Circuit: Controlled by Idle Jet and AFR Screw, Jet dermines size of port, and the screw fine-tunes flow. This circuit is independent of throttle and continuous.

2. Main Circuit: Controlled by Main Jet. Not going into height of needle as most modern carburetors come with non adjustable needles. Jet again determines size of port and the throttle determines flow, this circuit is not continuous as the needle that opens and closes the port sits on the slide which also controls the majority of air flow into the cylinder. Slide lifts, air flow isn't restricted and the pressure variance results in fuel being sucked out from the main jet and fed into the cylinder along with the air.

So what could really affect performance?

Well for starters, Improper Air Filter maintenance would result in the motorcycle running funny and clogging the idle circuit, which again would result in a similar concern for EFI's i.e regarding its IAC, which believe it or not is more prone to happening even with clean filters in place.

Second cause of concern is sediments and impurities, which can gunk up the Jets or cause the float valve from not properly closing resulting in an overflow. Something again which is common to EFI as well, another thing to note is that in EFI's the ideal remedy would be change the fuel pump(read quite expensive) as servicing its filter isn't a recommended practice favoring integrity of the unit. Also if not caught in due time would result in not only fuel pump but also Injector Damage which again is a really expensive affair. In comparison, even if the owner is careless to the point that the motorcycle refuses to run, all he has to do is simply clean the carburetor and things would get back to normal just like that at no additional cost.

Now these are just examples that equally affect both of the systems, I guess back when we had crappy fuel and unrestricted air filters there did arise the need to frequently maintain a carburetor which if lucky would've been the same or generally worse if at all we had FI's during those times.

Hence my best guess is tales from the yore have simply been passed down from generation to generation without invoking the need for critical thinking which would most probably be behind the advice you've received, cause I've simply explained how a carburetor works and you can see for yourself that there simply is no rocket science involved, as long as you maintain consumables(Air Filter etc) and feed it decent fuel, it will run and run and run till the end of time.

This point I couldn't understand. Could you please elaborate. I think what I gather from this is that some engine assemblies may favour a carb and others might favour EFI(would be logically, following from the way in which the engine was designed)?

Basically ignition systems can be classified as;

1. CB Points
2. AC CDI
3. DC CDI, TCI and ECU

Reliability associated with the above options depend on user experience and knowledge.

Ideally a motorcycle running off a carburetor would be fed by any of the above with the exception of a ECU, depending on what type of ignition it has the reliability factor would vary depending on earlier mentioned user preferences.

So simply put my DC CDI motorcycle isn't as reliable as my AC CDI motorcycle, i.e the former is similar to an EFI motorcycle that runs off an ECU, meaning if the electricals are affected then the motorcycle stops firing.

Whereas in my AC CDI motorcycle, I could literally keep riding the motorcycle even if the RR unit got fried cause the CDI is powered by the source coil which is independent of the charging and lighting coils.

Again all systems do have their own pro's and con's and are chosen based on different priorities, to know in detail Google is your friend.

I simply mentioned this cause the Carburetor v/s EFI debate is merely the tip of the iceberg and the motorcycle being a whole comprising of several components shouldn't really be evaluated at that level without taking into consideration the whole system.

But then again, information regarding the same is oppenly available on the internet, and personal experience and level of understanding does play a part in this, hence why I believe such discussions are generally frowned upon, cause both you and I could be right in our own reasoning and yet in reality be neither right nor wrong as end preference is dermined by individual user case.

Cheers,
A.P.

[tedha_ant]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

Again all systems do have their own pro's and con's and are chosen based on different priorities, to know in detail Google is your friend.

So in the case of Royal Enfield, What do you suggest?
Upgrade the engine to 500? or get a bullet 500 and make the changes? or put my faith in previous owner and get the regular 500 classic?
Doesn't converting from FI to Carb affect the engine reliability and would be a bigger hassle?

For me every RE is always a project bike so, I don't mind getting my hands dirty to maintain it. I do have a 350 thunderbird but I am looking for an upgrade and there is something about the classic that pulls me towards it. But neither RE's FI nor the service centre guys are anywhere as reliable as KTM's.
So being stranded in middle of the road without proper replacement parts is the last thing on my list and the main reason I'm ready to go through all the hassle.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by tedha_ant

So in the case of Royal Enfield, What do you suggest?
Upgrade the engine to 500? or get a bullet 500 and make the changes? or put my faith in previous owner and get the regular 500 classic?
Doesn't converting from FI to Carb affect the engine reliability and would be a bigger hassle?

For me every RE is always a project bike so, I don't mind getting my hands dirty to maintain it. I do have a 350 thunderbird but I am looking for an upgrade and there is something about the classic that pulls me towards it. But neither RE's FI nor the service centre guys are anywhere as reliable as KTM's.
So being stranded in middle of the road without proper replacement parts is the last thing on my list and the main reason I'm ready to go through all the hassle.

If you can get a Carburetted Bullet 500 then all well and good, but if for any reason would only ride a Classic 500 then you'd need to convert from EFI to Carb.

The easiest way is the most expensive one;

Indimotard's EFI to Carb Conversion Kit



Price is unreasonably high at Rs.9250/- as a UCD33 from the Bajaj 200NS costs only about 3k;







We'd installed one on a ZMA a while ago, hence know.

For another 1~1.5k you can get the other consumables, tap, conversion plate(fabricated) etc.. So basically for less than 5k you can get the motorcycle converted to Carb even though you'd have to figure out jetting for yourself, but a quick search and you can find the data as this is a common mod.

As for the electrical's wait for the ECU to conk off, once it does replace wiring and scrap the ECU for a CDI, will any day be cheaper than getting a new ECU.

Either way you look at it, converting a 350 to a 500 is simply not worth the time and money. Personally I'd settle for the Bullet 500 and call it a day as I personally cannot see the advantages offered by going for a Classic 500 and then taking the effort to convert it to Carb, but if it is what your heart desires then go for it.

Cheers!
A.P.

[abhishekj10]

@sudeep11787

Thanks for interesting read.

I'm looking to buy a friend of a friend's RE 350 CLASSIC UCE 2015 model.


I'm wondering if you could help me with details of your bike,

1 -2015 Invoice price of DELHI (onroad + )

2 - what were the documents you received along with the bike?

3 - MANUAL if any?

4 - toolkit & a pic of it maybe?

5 - how many keys ?


Kindly update me of possible by you. Need to wrap my head around 350 CLASSIC UCE , which I need for commuting.

My actual plan was for a inty 650 (already got 1 for a cousin) but since this friends' is lying unused I thought of taking it and restoring it for time being. Ofcourse I want to pay reasonable to him, but the condition seems out of whack and I'm clueless of what all I need to check & inspect.

It'll be a great help if we could connect on this.

****

My what - sapp number incase we can connect ( 7011 * 647 * 118 )

OR E Mai l abhishekj10 at g mail

[abhishekj10]

@sudeep11787

Thanks for interesting read.

I'm looking to buy a friend of a friend's RE 350 CLASSIC UCE 2015 model.


I'm wondering if you could help me with details of your bike,

1 -2015 Invoice price of DELHI (onroad + )

2 - what were the documents you received along with the bike?

3 - MANUAL if any?

4 - toolkit & a pic of it maybe?

5 - how many keys ?


Kindly update me of possible by you. Need to wrap my head around 350 CLASSIC UCE , which I need for commuting.

My actual plan was for a inty 650 (already got 1 for a cousin) but since this friends' is lying unused I thought of taking it and restoring it for time being. Ofcourse I want to pay reasonable to him, but the condition seems out of whack and I'm clueless of what all I need to check & inspect.

It'll be a great help if we could connect on this.


I suspect the bike needs ample amount of work (like engine head
n nearby areas seems to be with leaks + around clutch casing) rusted battery box
Bad chain n sprocket
Rotor disc may have gone bad as slight steps seen

Fork suspension may have light leak

Cold self start happens post 2 attempts or so.

General servicing + above issues and body work maybe needed to make it work like new.

I'm specifically looking for 2015 models specs and other nitty gritties around it. I guess this model was from 2012 to 2021 when it was discontinued, but unsure.

TiA and hope to connect on same soon.