[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by petrolhead_neel

As I understand, the clutch goes through less stress if engine braking is done properly, right? It engages smoother.

Quoting from this article by our very own TVS:

When you slip the clutch the friction plates go through accelerated wear and tear, there simply are no two ways about it.

The 'clutch components' in question what TVS refers to is your clutch basket and inner hub, any shock being introduced be it from engine or rear wheel bangs the teeth of the plates against the clutch basket and inner hub.

This in turn creates indentations on the mating surface which has a potential to affect the release of plates when de-clutching resulting in improper disengagement which translates to more load on transmission as well as hard shifts that put load on many more components.

Plus if not that then there is still the concern of wearing down the clutch basket bushes.

You'll get an idea of the parts in question if you go through the following thread;

DIY: Assembling your motorcycle clutch!

BUT!

I can say with confidence that irrespective of whether you rev match or not, there'd still be enough markings on your hub and basket, reason being they're made of aluminum.

As for the bushes on the hub, I doubt anyone would even contemplate reusing the same hub after a couple of clutch plate swaps, it simply doesn't make sense i.e unless you're badass to the degree that you'd be hauling ass on a vintage motorcycle like there's no tomorrow.

So to conclude, it doesn't matter whether you blip or not when it comes to component longevity i.e provided you're doing it right.

But it does matter when it comes to making it a habit, cause there are some tighter sections in the ghats where maintaining traction can be challenging and blipping the throttle can make your life a lot easier and less painful.

Learning to rev match and getting it right is a bit tricky though, or so it was for me.

The only scope of confusion is when to blip, some wonder whether its immediate after disengaging clutch or whether its just before engaging clutch.

The right answer would be to blip, immediately after disengaging clutch, followed by shifting gear and then disengaging the clutch.

The key here is timing, the RPM should be floating even when you're engaging the clutch.

The reason for blipping just when you disengage is because ours is a constant mesh transmission and everything is connecting to everything else, even with the clutch disengaged when you shift into a lower gear there is shock, hence why you blip as soon as you disengage clutch and before shifting down.

Now the reason the RPM should still be floating when you engage clutch is cause you do not want the rear wheel speed to be way faster than engine speed such that it'd result in an unsettling experience.

Now finally, precision is what we need to attain rather than keeping the throttle opened for too long which would aggravate the wear and tear on the clutch unnecessarily.

That might cost a couple of clutches. But it's all fun!

Again, do it right and it won't make a noticeable difference in clutch life cause after all the clutch would last anywhere around 30~50k km's or even longer.

Heck! Pulling the lever in and waiting for the lights to turn green for minutes at end would result in more wear and tear than a random blip here and there.

Whoop! Hope that explains everything!
Cheers,
A.P.

[R-Six]

Was wondering what these jargons “rev matching” and “blipping” were until I watched the video. Feeling stupid now.

Those who have grown up adoring and playing around with 2 strokes would have certainly done this, of course, without actually knowing what the technique is actually called. Happened to me at least!

If you are someone who ride hard and use engine breaking, you just cannot ride without using this technique. Relying on your brakes alone wouldn’t just cut it most of the times.

Ride Safe,
R-Six

[srini1785]

Just a noob question: What happens to your gears when you suddenly downshift after engine braking?. I quite understand the plight of the clutch friction plates.

[nitro.1000bhp]

Last year around August I went for a track day at mmrt and got to ride a Yamaha R3 wo slipper clutch and my d390 with slipper clutch back to back..the difference while entering a corner was significant. The R3 would step out during every gear change while my Duke had no drama.

Slipper clutch does not eliminate engine braking completely but it momentarily free wheels so you don't get the initial back torque which is what unsettles the rear. You will still feel the engine braking slowing you down but just not that aggressively. I was under the same assumption that slipper clutch would mean I'd have to use more brakes to slow down but I was pleasantly surprised and I had a feeling I was using even less brakes than before I fitted the slipper clutch and I was definitely a damn side faster than I was on the R3 . I think this is because while braking from a high speed even a momentary loss of grip at the rear means precious braking time is lost and we end up using even more brakes and end up fumbling the corner, not to mention the loss in concentration too as you are trying to wrestle the bike back into line.

On a serious note I'd suggest to change down gears 2 at a time and wait for the rpm to settle and then go down another gear or 2. Unless we are in a racing scenario it's not worth putting the engine and gearbox through those sort of stresses.

Cheers.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by srini1785

Just a noob question: What happens to your gears when you suddenly downshift after engine braking?. I quite understand the plight of the clutch friction plates.

Nothing from my experience so far, depending on the compound of Tyre there'd be some slips and screams.

Some say it kills chain life, but so far the only thing that kills chain life as per my experience is running it super tight and not properly maintaining it.

Now that is as far as dropping a gear or two goes, if you drop like 3~4 gears at one go then that'd cause the transmission to over-rev and as a result even with the clutch pulled in your rear wheel may lock-up.

P.S. The faster the rear wheel is rotating with respect to the selected gear the louder there'd be bangs from shifting.

[ArizonaJim]

After reading this thread, yesterday while I was riding my Royal Enfield 500 I paid particular attention to what I was doing when I was downshifting.
With over 55 years of riding, my downshifting method has become automatic and it has always been done smoothly without clunks or jerks.

Bear in mind, I was riding normally and not racing anyone but, here is what I do.

While riding along at a given speed, and knowing I will be slowing down shortly or I will want to use a lower gear to accelerate, I do not move my throttle hand or blip the throttle. I just pull in the clutch lever, disengaging the clutch.

The engine, which was providing the power that was needed to maintain my speed, increased its speed automatically. As this happened, I shifted into the next lower gear without a problem or clunk or jerk of any kind.
Once in the lower gear, letting the clutch re-engage I was then free to either open the throttle to increase my speed or, close the throttle to create engine braking.

After determining this was the method I normally used, I tried "blipping" the throttle after pulling in the clutch lever and then downshifting.
In every case, blipping the throttle caused the speed of the engine to be too fast for the lower gear and resulted in a loud "clunk".


This brings me to the conclusion that "backing off the throttle" or blipping the throttle with the clutch pulled in and then downshifting is the wrong thing to do.
Try it. I'm sure that leaving the throttle alone, pulling in the clutch lever, downshifting, letting out the clutch lever and then doing whatever it is you wanted to do will work for you.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by ArizonaJim

I was riding my Royal Enfield 500

The Bullet's have a very low RPM ceiling, at around 5k RPM is what I recall, might be less.

I've gone up and down gears on the UCE 350 that has a higher limit than the 500, without using the clutch and the motorcycle was at home, no blipping to downshift or anything.

The engine revs so low that rev-matching is not even a matter of concern.

Other motorcycles rev way higher all the way up to 12k and have gear ratios even wider apart, also to note is that RE's don't have overdrive gearing.

Cheers,
A.P.

[NiInJa]

Just to add, if you are someone who likes to ride aggressively in city -not in terms of speed but revving hard and shifting gears often than needed- using engine braking in most of the times (like me), this rev-matching thing comes handy. I tend to lock my bike's wheels even at 50 kmph while downshifting aggressively and if tyres are not grippy enough, the bike can fish-tail momentarily.

[nitro.1000bhp]

Originally Posted by ArizonaJim

After reading this thread, yesterday while I was riding my Royal Enfield 500 I paid particular attention to what I was doing when I was downshifting.
With over 55 years of riding, my downshifting method has become automatic and it has always been done smoothly without clunks.......This brings me to the conclusion that "backing off the throttle" or blipping the throttle with the clutch pulled in and then downshifting is the wrong thing to do.
Try it. I'm sure that leaving the throttle alone, pulling in the clutch lever, downshifting, letting out the clutch lever and then doing whatever it is you wanted to do will work for you.

That is true for the old bullet gearboxes. I am not sure about the technicalities but my bullet 500 would never shift (up or down) when the rpms are high (CI with right-side shift). I can always hear the gears grinding if I did. I am not sure if this due to a lack of synchromesh?... So, I always pull in the clutch, wait for the rpm to drop and only then can i shift.

But you can try it on the new bikes with modern gearboxes , they will shift better and smoother with this technique.

[ArizonaJim]

For what it's worth, I was talking about downshifting and the fact that when the clutch is pulled in, the engine which was under load, will automatically increase its RPM making blipping the throttle unnecessary. This same thing will happen to any motorcycle engine whether it is on old motorcycles or new ones. Perhaps the only one that it won't be quite as effective on would be the old Royal Enfield with the 4 speed gearbox when one is shifting from 4th to 3rd. As many of you know, there was a big difference between those gears in the old 4 speed.

As for high revving engines, I am very familiar with them having put over 25,000 miles on a Honda 400F cafe racer. That engine was redlined at 12,000 RPM. I'll admit its 6 speed gearbox did have close ratios between it gears. Even it would downshift nicely if one just pulled in the clutch, let the engine speed up without moving the throttle, and downshift to the next lower gear. (Awesome beast but rather "peeky". It's real power didn't come on until the engine hit 8,000 RPM and when it did between 8,000 and 12,000 RPM it was like a kick in the pants.)

As for syncromesh in a transmission, I don't know of any motorcycle that has them. To the best of my knowledge, all of the motorcycles that have selectable gears (not the automatic or constant speed types) use "dogs" on their gears to engage other gears "dogs" to provide a solid lockup. By the way, it is these solid steel dogs that you hear clunking when the engine speed and gear speeds are not matched.
Fortunately, the dogs are designed to take the abuse.

[Revmatch99]

Originally Posted by Rocketscience

It has come to the point that i hate downshifting in my car because most of the times i get that jerk when doing that and makes me wonder why is such a vital feature missing in cars, maybe because the primary purpose of the slipper clutch is to prevent the rear wheel from locking and that might not be the problem with cars, but it also immensely improves on the shift action which is way smoother and lighter along with buttery smooth upshifts and jerk free down shifts. It is a revelation in my books.

You can rev match in cars as well, and while braking you can use heel toe technique to downshift. Heel toeing can be tricky to do in some cars because of weird pedal setup and sensitive brake pedal but once you master it, heel toeing is one of the most satisfying things you can do while driving.

https://youtu.be/A9Pfwd2isqA

https://youtu.be/QXZKRc4UYLw

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by ArizonaJim

For what it's worth, I was talking about downshifting and the fact that when the clutch is pulled in, the engine which was under load, will automatically increase its RPM making blipping the throttle unnecessary.

We all subconsciously roll back on the throttle when changing gears irrespective of whether we ride or drive, hence why the RPM doesn't go up enough to matter.

The only scenario where the RPM shoots up when the clutch is pulled is when we'd be Power-Shifting, i.e shifting with the throttle still open.

Though usually it is done to go up gears, I've done so when going down gears, usually happens when I'm going faster than I should on a winding road I'm not familiar with and there is a consecutive corner that is of decreasing radius, so there simply isn't time to blip and drop a gear at a time, a fistful of clutch with the throttle open and banging down gears usually accompanied with calling out to any deity that'd listen.

As for syncromesh in a transmission, I don't know of any motorcycle that has them.

There was one that "Claimed" to offer a Synchromesh, that was the UM Renegade Commando, but due to the shady nature of the company as a whole I seriously doubt that was a fact.

Cheers,
A.P.

[Rocketscience]

Originally Posted by Revmatch99

You can rev match in cars as well, and while braking you can use heel toe technique to downshift. Heel toeing can be tricky to do in some cars because of weird pedal setup and sensitive brake pedal but once you master it, heel toeing is one of the most satisfying things you can do while driving.

I will give it a try but this seems to be quite a task to do on every downshift, i meant if a slipper clutch kind of thing comes standard in cars, the experience would be immensely better, i do know Fortuner MT comes with revv matching as standard, that might be about as good, never tried it though.

[tharian]

Originally Posted by nitro.1000bhp

That is true for the old bullet gearboxes. I am not sure about the technicalities but my bullet 500 would never shift (up or down) when the rpms are high (CI with right-side shift). I can always hear the gears grinding if I did. I am not sure if this due to a lack of synchromesh?... So, I always pull in the clutch, wait for the rpm to drop and only then can i shift.

But you can try it on the new bikes with modern gearboxes , they will shift better and smoother with this technique.

On the 4 speed Bullets, regardless of engine speed, I blip the throttle for every shift. I have gotten so used to it that I have hardly tried a shift without blipping and if I have, it will never shift and instead fall into the 'false neutral' between gears.

Originally Posted by Revmatch99

heel toeing is one of the most satisfying things you can do while driving.

Tell me about.

I do it on my diesel Aspire and the smoothness when you release the clutch is such a nice feeling. Was more fun on my previous car which had a FFE.
I don't try the heel-toe in traffic as I have not mastered it, but do it on a empty roads or when driving hard. But most of the times, I rev match and downshift first and then start the braking. On a low revving engine like a diesel, it is easier to get the timing right as well for the shift and blip.

[Revmatch99]

Originally Posted by Rocketscience

I will give it a try but this seems to be quite a task to do on every downshift, i meant if a slipper clutch kind of thing comes standard in cars, the experience would be immensely better, i do know Fortuner MT comes with revv matching as standard, that might be about as good, never tried it though.

Once you get a hang of it, rev matching becomes second nature. I didn't know Fortuner came with auto rev match. Usually it's found on newer performance cars.

Originally Posted by tharian

On the 4 speed Bullets, regardless of engine speed, I blip the throttle for every shift. I have gotten so used to it that I have hardly tried a shift without blipping and if I have, it will never shift and instead fall into the 'false neutral' between gears.....

I do it on my diesel Aspire and the smoothness when you release the clutch is such a nice feeling. Was more fun on my previous car which had a FFE.

I learnt to ride on my dad's 4 speed bullet, even after revmatching it sometimes still goes in false neutrals
It made me appreciate the convenience of a modern bike so much more.

Also the sound a car/bike makes while rev matching is a big part of the reason I love doing it, it's like playing a musical instrument while driving