[Samarth 619]

My opinion might not be the most favourite, but I believe if you're going the twin way, you must aim for a big capacity bike. A 490 Twin is hardly KTM's nature, it sounds more like a Jap configuration.

Rather, a 490cc single for 1-1.5 lakhs or so lesser with 50-55 bhp, and a 690 twin would've done wonders for the brand.

Now they'll have a bike in 65~ bhp range, so most components will be next segment anyways, expect 120+160 profile tyres, dual discs up front, a very good frame, not to mention almost double the list of components of the existing single cylinder engines... and similar service costs!

And we'll keep reminding ourselves that by adding just 6-7 mm on each side on the engine, they could've ended up with a 690, at a price point which kills the 650 twins and i4's nice and easy...

But I guess this is how progression works and probably few more years before we have it like this.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Samarth 619

And we'll keep reminding ourselves that by adding just 6-7 mm on each side on the engine, they could've ended up with a 690, at a price point which kills the 650 twins and i4's nice and easy...

Which 650 twins do you want KTM to kill? Which i4's?

The 390s already peacefully stay on the tail on 600+ bikes on most roads in India except maybe the superslabs.

But then you know what they say about riding superslab ... given enough time and patience you could train a chimpanzee to do it.

Cheers, Doc

[Samarth 619]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Which 650 twins do you want KTM to kill? Which i4's?
The 390s already peacefully stay on the tail on 600+ bikes on most roads in India except maybe the superslabs.
But then you know what they say about riding superslab ... given enough time and patience you could train a chimpanzee to do it.
Cheers, Doc

The Honda CBR 650F (I know its discontinued, but the reason was BS6 and it could make a comeback, thinking long term here) is one such inline 4. The Kawasaki Ninja 650 (er 6n) is another which comes to mind if you're thinking around 6L+ on road.
The 650 street segment will get more entrants with time.

You're right, straight line performance doesn't matter that much in real life... it surely does in the market though.
A classic example is ZX6R, way more practical than the litres, sporty, higher revving, even quite exclusive, and so eagerly demanded all these years by keyboard fighters, but when it hits the showroom... Guess how many stood with their chequebooks in hand?
Hint: in just 3 months it was down to 0 sales while ZX10R still managed somehow.

BTW I own a 2013 Duke 390 and let me tell you, it gets close to 600's in busy spaces, but you have to be an extremely "rev-friendly" rider for that... And more of it is due to 600's peaky config, than any of 390's strengths.
No replacement for displacement after all.

Ironically, bikes like Superduke 1290 and few Ducati's taught us that less cylinders can be awesome, and now, we have a planned KTM against this philosophy, it kinda feels odd...
Cheers,
SS.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Samarth 619

The Honda CBR 650F (I know its discontinued, but the reason was BS6 and it could make a comeback, thinking long term here) is one such inline 4. The Kawasaki Ninja 650 (er 6n) is another which comes to mind if you're thinking around 6L+ on road.
The 650 street segment will get more entrants with time.

You're right, straight line performance doesn't matter that much in real life... it surely does in the market though.
A classic example is ZX6R, way more practical than the litres, sporty, higher revving, even quite exclusive, and so eagerly demanded all these years by keyboard fighters, but when it hits the showroom... Guess how many stood with their chequebooks in hand?
Hint: in just 3 months it was down to 0 sales while ZX10R still managed somehow.

BTW I own a 2013 Duke 390 and let me tell you, it gets close to 600's in busy spaces, but you have to be an extremely "rev-friendly" rider for that... And more of it is due to 600's peaky config, than any of 390's strengths.
No replacement for displacement after all.

Ironically, bikes like Superduke 1290 and few Ducati's taught us that less cylinders can be awesome, and now, we have a planned KTM against this philosophy, it kinda feels odd...
Cheers,
SS.

Yeah I ride a first gen Duke 390 too and a WO twisted throttle is the default position of my right wrist congenitally.

I have not even seen a Honda 650 on the road, leave alone ride one.

But I've ridden the Kawa 650s. The Duke will happily stay with them.

I've raced a bunch of Ducatis (Diavels, Desert Sleds, etc.) including a Multistrada being ridden flat out by a very close friend and rider buddy (we both cut our teeth on Bullet 500s) in the ghats. The Multistrada could not pull away, and there were three occasions I was on his tail about to overtake but the roughness of the broken road (the mighty Warandha) came to his rescue just in time.

We called it quits after a proper 30 km duel. Unspoken. When the rider in front sits up.

Trust me, the 500 twin will burn some big bikes pretty bad.

Cheers, Doc

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Y
Trust me, the 500 twin will burn some big bikes pretty bad.

Cheers, Doc

And that is the whole point of this model line up. The traditional 650's from the japs have had a very long run in every market globally with none to challenge them. Think about it, you have loads of choices in the sub liter (800 and above) and the litre class category on adv and street bikes, but almost none in the traditional 650 class and 70 hp category (its the holy four Honda-Kawasaki-Suzuki-Yamaha). Its absolutely a segment ripe for intervention and demolition.

Just like what the 390 series did for anything over 30 hp and under 60 hp. Burned.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

And that is the whole point of this model line up. The traditional 650's from the japs have had a very long run in every market globally with none to challenge them. Think about it, you have loads of choices in the sub liter (800 and above) and the litre class category on adv and street bikes, but almost none in the traditional 650 class and 70 hp category (its the holy four Honda-Kawasaki-Suzuki-Yamaha). Its absolutely a segment ripe for intervention and demolition.

Just like what the 390 series did for anything over 30 hp and under 60 hp. Burned.

I know that. That's what I'm saying too.

The Duke 690 was killed for the changing international norms I hear.

Otherwise, a Duke 690R at 72 bhp (and barely bigger and heavier than our first gen 390s) could as easily have taken the fight to this middle weight segment.

I've never owned a multi cylinder bike. Maybe this will be the first.

Cheers, Doc

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by ebonho

I know that. That's what I'm saying too.

The Duke 690 was killed for the changing international norms I hear.

Otherwise, a Duke 690R at 72 bhp (and barely bigger and heavier than our first gen 390s) could as easily have taken the fight to this middle weight segment.

I've never owned a multi cylinder bike. Maybe this will be the first.

Cheers, Doc

Wait.

The 690 still exists - as the Enduro R and euro 5 ready
https://www.ktm.com/en-int/models/tr...uro-r2020.html

This is all the bike I need.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Wait.

The 690 still exists - as the Enduro R and euro 5 ready
https://www.ktm.com/en-int/models/tr...uro-r2020.html

This is all the bike I need.

I don't understand if they kept the LC4 engine platform, why they killed the Duke. It boils my brains.

Cheers, Doc

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by ebonho

I don't understand if they kept the LC4 engine platform, why they killed the Duke. It boils my brains.

Cheers, Doc

I think its too expensive an engine to keep going with all the polution norms. So they dropped it into a bike people dont mind paying extra money for.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

I think its too expensive an engine to keep going with all the polution norms. So they dropped it into a bike people dont mind paying extra money for.

Pollution norms are for all vehicles. If the engine was made to conform to them for supermoto and enduro, then why not the Duke?

The Duke 690 abroad is not cheap. Its Austrian made. Is the price so much lower than the SM and Enduro versions?

Cheers, Doc

[aravind.anand]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Pollution norms are for all vehicles. If the engine was made to conform to them for supermoto and enduro, then why not the Duke?

The Duke 690 abroad is not cheap. Its Austrian made. Is the price so much lower than the SM and Enduro versions?

Cheers, Doc

Maybe it was a marketing team driven decision Doc. Those decisions seldom make logical sense, especially for us enthusiasts.

KTM might have thought the cost of making the Duke 690 Euro 5 compliant would not break-even as the selling price vs competition would not present an enticing proposition - against the Japs perhaps. But the in the enduro world, KTM has a name for itself and there the numbers (in the marketing presentation) could have been higher.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by aravind.anand

Maybe it was a marketing team driven decision Doc. Those decisions seldom make logical sense, especially for us enthusiasts.

KTM might have thought the cost of making the Duke 690 Euro 5 compliant would not break-even as the selling price vs competition would not present an enticing proposition - against the Japs perhaps. But the in the enduro world, KTM has a name for itself and there the numbers (in the marketing presentation) could have been higher.

I'm sounding like a broken record here. But I've ridden a Duke 690.

If they made that bike in Chakan, man it would be the next 390. Killing everything till 10 lacs.

How can they ignore a market the size of India?

Who buys enduros and supermotos in India?

Cheers, Doc

[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by ebonho

I'm sounding like a broken record here. But I've ridden a Duke 690.

If they made that bike in Chakan, man it would be the next 390. Killing everything till 10 lacs.

How can they ignore a market the size of India?

Who buys enduros and supermotos in India?

Cheers, Doc

If someone sells it, we will buy them

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

If someone sells it, we will buy them

The we you speak of have bought the Adventure and Himalayan and XPulse.

Don't have the numbers at hand, but I'm pretty sure similar capacity and stable naked sales far outweigh those numbers.

Remember the poll we had ongoing..

The runaway leaders were the retro classics and the nakeds. With Adventure a distant third.

That equation gets even more lopsided when you consider that what go under retro classics are essentially nakeds in the functional form classification of motorcycles. Standards ... using different terminology.

Any which way,the market for bikes such as the supermotards and enduros would all roll up under Adventure in India. Splitting these already existing numbers.

The 690 Duke would be an affordable made in India middleweight naked.

A whole different market segment.

Cheers, Doc

[Samarth 619]

Not to revive an older thread, but I guess you all know the Twin 490 project has been shelved:-

https://www.zigwheels.com/news-featu...shelved/46116/
https://gaadiwaadi.com/much-awaited-...helved-report/

I guess just 2 platforms:- a single cylinder 690-790, and the twin cylinder 1290 platform would complete the Indian range in all aspects.
Other segments (like 490 twin) would just prove to be alternatives to existing products, not much of a USP if you ask me.
Like someone said, 690 can be the next 390, provided it can meet the emission norms with ease.

I know multicylinder has its many many advantages, including performance, smoothness, rev stability, easier to rev high safely, etc.
Still, the single is anyday more practical, and economical to maintain while still being lightweight. Service fears (common in India) are also minimised in a single cyl. bike.


PS: I did a rough calculation and found that a 375 cc single is equal in performance to a 250cc 4 cylinder (Duke 390 vs ZX25, both with similar 0-60,0-100 times and top end, although vastly different revs, the ZX25 is heavily undergeared in general).