[souvikjana83]

While people look at the new companies like Revolt, Ather and Ola for Electric 2 wheelers and the revolution it is bringing to the 2 Wheeler industry, many of them actually forget the small players who have been silently manufacturing and selling Electric Scooters for a long time now.

Companies like Ampere, Hero Electric, Pure EV, Okinawa, Benling, Rowett, Gemopai and others have been active in Electric 2 Wheeler industry for a long time. Unfortunately no one is keeping records on the sales of Electric Scooters from these companies or these are not published.

A recent claim by Pure EV is that they had already sold more than 25000 electric scooters in India. Pure EV is less than 2 yrs old company. Ampere and Hero Electric are more established that way but there are no records on how many electric scooters they have sold. Okinawa had the maximum number of dealers of Electric Scooters in India some years back.

If the sales of all the Electric Scooters of all these companies are taken into account till date, I am sure it will be quite a good share of the pie.

Petrol prices are slowly reaching ₹120 per ltr and Bajaj still don't want to invest in Electric Mobility. Instead Mr Rajiv Bajaj is making irrelevant statements. Not a good sign for the company unless they change.

[CarNerd]

There is a proverb: When the cat's away, the mice will play. So let Ola, Ather and Others play for a short time before the big cat arrives:



.

[tiagoatrix]

Well, Hero, Honda, TVS, Bajaj already have the market and network to enter remote corners of the country. In a country where internet penetration is only 50%, how will you be able to to sell a Lakh rupee product only online? What's going to be their service( though EV's are mostly maintanence free) /support network?

If this is a PR stunt, then what's with Ola's boss riding around in their EV, making huge claims about sales (without even a single scooter being delivered).

The same applies to Mahindra, create a faux hype, lure people but prioritize top end models and make others wait.

Given a similar product from both Ola and Bajaj, I'd buy a Bajaj even if its a few thousand rupees higher.

At the end of the day, all the companies aim for profit.
Why not choose the known devil?

Incase I buy a Ola scooter just because it had enormous bookings and then one day I'm stranded on road with the scooter , Bavesh Agrawal isn't going to come and provide assistance. The odds of Bajaj technician helping me out is much much higher.

[Asoon]

Facts tell a very different story,

What Bajaj is enjoying is legacy, there is no innovation / product development since ages.
- Nothing new after Pulsar (still milking same brand)
- Most of the new launches are piggyback by KTM tech (without KTM help then engine lineup is dud)
- People with understanding of 2W space will never prefer Bajaj engine (nowhere near Yamaha / Honda / Suzuki, any local 2W mechanic will tell you engine seizure rates of Pulsar / Discover compared to any other 2W)
- Electric Chetak is dud, no where close to Ather / OLA S1

Space is changing quickly with not real technology/ R&D and such overconfidence they will soon be Kodak of this space.

Ecommerce has disrupted mobile sales, Udaan has disrupted traditional supply chain, On Demand Cabs have disrupted travel, There are literally Zero flight bookings offline, UPI transactions are higher than Credit + Debit card combined.

Mr Bajaj needs to understand that this is not 80s / 90s, accumulated capital / brand is not a strong moat as it was few decades back.

[anjan_c2007]

Appears to be an "Old School" versus the new "Start-Ups" war of words that will soon get transformed into a real life market war. Shall be interesting to watch as the events unfold !

Its also amusing that TVS and Bajaj who were at daggers drawn are now friends. They battled at the Madras and Bombay High Courts over a copyright infringement of a decade-long dispute related to alleged infringement of Bajaj's patent for digital twin spark plug ignition technology. In September 2007, Bajaj Auto had accused TVS Motor of infringing its patent on DTS-i (digital twin spark plug ignition) when the later launched its motorcycle model Flame 125cc that had controlled combustion variable timing intelligent (CC-VTi) technology. The dispute was amicably settled in 2019 between the two companies.

But that was a war over fossil fuel ignition that has now been fossilised and the mutual friendship electrified to reach new dimensions.

[Ritz2010]

This guy is just motor mouth. He is just lapping up the investors with this rhetoric.

In the age when EVs are gaining prominence and ICE engine phaseout is happening in 4 wheelers, two wheeler manufacturers got to pull up the socks but I see it's happening other way around.

Bajaj was planning to do so many things on EV front for a long time - we are in fag end of 2021 yet there is nothing (as far as I know) in Bajaj's stable.

[rascalangel]

Some of the replies on this thread are so naive they made me chuckle. Those saying Bajaj has not innovated must have been living under a rock! Some even implying the success of Bajaj on license raj days. AFAIK Bajaj was all but out in the early 2000's before being literally resurrected by Pulsars. From there its just has been story of growth and innovation. 180cc, 220F, Discovers, Eliminator, AS200, NS200, RS200, Dominar. How many models across different segments have TVS/Hero/Honda combined have launched in that period? The less said about Hero the better. The only two companies in Indian automotive sector to have made GOOD strategic investments are Bajaj (KTM) and Tata (JLR). Hero invested in Buell and TVS recently invested in Norton (Who?). KTM is one of the most successful non-asian motorcycle manufacturer in Europe and North America at present.

On the topic, while what Mr. Bajaj said was typical aggressive of him, I believe that its a good thing because he reacting implies he has noticed that the demand for (premium)electric vehicles is there. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that one day in near future the BET will eat OATS. Who knows may be he has invested in Ather/Tork through proxy!

I dont know about E but for B/T churning out EVs would be piece of cake. Remember that they are primarily assemblers. No they dont have to make their own BMS/Motor. They can leverage their long standing time tested partnerships with companies such as Bosch/Conti. Plus given the fact that a rural person will trust a B/T scooter over Ola/Ather any day, once the city growth is fulfilled i wonder how these startups will grow? As, in the end you got to make profit over 10s of years (Which the incumbents know very well of)

Having learnt the lesson by giving the scooter market to honda on silver platter, I dont think Bajaj will make the same mistake again.

(BTW in all this Suzuki might just take everyone by surprise - they have been testing electric burgman for quite some time now!)

[Gansan]

^^ Know what? Spare part for any bike can be bought from relevant shops just by mentioning the name of the model and the part required. Except Bajaj bikes. One has to remove the part, take it to the shop and show it to them for getting the correct part. There are so many "variants" in a single model, it is hilarious. There should be standardisation within models to make life easy for customers.

Most parts of the current Splendor will still fit my 21 year old Splendor. That is one of the reasons why Splendor is still selling in numbers which can't be matched by any model from Bajaj or others, except by the Activa.

[raikva]

Existing entrenched players with huge capital (and brand capital) do have an advantage for sure. So, in a way, his words are true. But, it seems to be unnecessary and not in good spirit. And some of these new entrants are not strapped for capital either.

Well into the 90s, Bajaj had a reputation for actually not letting good competition come into/thrive in India and then dominated the auto/scooter business by being a beneficiary of the license raj. And this sort of rhetoric is not new for Rajiv Bajaj. He insulted Tata Nano only to unleash the monstrosity that was Qute (priced at 3 lakhs) onto Indian roads.

[rascalangel]

Originally Posted by Gansan

^^ Know what? Spare part for any bike can be bought from relevant shops just by mentioning the name of the model and the part required. Except Bajaj bikes. One has to remove the part, take it to the shop and show it to them for getting the correct part. There are so many "variants" in a single model, it is hilarious. There should be standardisation within models to make life easy for customers.

If i am understanding correctly then there is no issue of parts availability but only in finding the right one? The way i have been doing this for 15 years now is go to the authorized genuine spare parts dealer and ask them politely for the parts catalogue of my particular model. (Or you could just ask them for all catalogues of say Pulsar series and select the one with cover matching yours.) Then i only have to point out the part for which they will read the part number (usually starting with DJ/DHXXXXX) and fetch the part. No hassles, no wrong parts. If i could do this without being a mechanic a FNG mech could easily do it (Being a regular customer).

As a side note, there are threads littered with complaints that "certain" companies dont update their models but when some do we nitpick?

[NiInJa]

Originally Posted by rascalangel

Some of the replies on this thread are so naive they made me chuckle. Those saying Bajaj has not innovated must have been living under a rock! Some even implying the success of Bajaj on license raj days.....

Thanks for writing this! I would not have penned it in a better way.
I found the arguments saying they are not innovative outright hilarious. India as a market is tough and despite the odds, Bajaj and TVS have tried to give more than what customer would want in respective segments. Compare that with Honda or Suzuki Motorcycles. Up until BS6, Honda was giving a link type front suspension on their best selling scooter! The only innovation they did with that scooter was probably give an outside fuel filler cap! Honda exited the 150-250cc sport category and as of today, they don't have a single bike with oil cooled engine in the premium commuter category!
Bajaj is the only bike manufacturer selling a 125cc bike having a perimeter frame, that sort of chassis is mostly reserved for premium bikes.

I think people are reading too much into Bajaj's statements. Rajiv Bajaj said that he respects Ather, there is a reason why he said so: they have been very methodical in their approach of manufacturing and selling a product which is of great quality.

The Chetak too is of great quality and I do see a lot of them here in Pune, there was some supply issue due to which deliveries got delayed last year. These are initial days of electric 2 wheelers, it is not about how may e-bikes you can sell in a quarter or year, it is about the experience of ownership. I see the quality of Hero, Okinawa etc and they are just bad scooters which once used are mostly dumped (I have two electric scooters gathering dust in our society parking)

And lastly, yes, as a public company they are answerable to stockholders so nothing wrong in that. What will be interesting is how BET will compete when consolidation of EV startups begin after some time. I am sure they are just watching how this game is working out for Ather, Ola and other significant E-bike manufacturers. Similar to e-tailers or telecom, these companies will go through stages of merging, consolidating, acquiring or even dying and when the right time comes, BET will simply acquire them and proceed to make better e-bikes.

[ohaak]

The localisation of the eChetak is still low. Bajaj has the muscle to make body frame and mechanicals, but where is the electrical expertise? They launched the eChetak to wet their feet with a throttled supply, IMO. They couldn’t match the customers demand and that is lost opportunity and damaged reputation. TVS iQube was such a small launch in limited markets that it was almost as if they were doing someone a favour by launching it. Both of these product launches by the industry giants were a shame.

Ola on the other hand has decided to go in with guns blazing. I hope that they are moderately successful with quality and after sales service or it will give electric two wheelers a bad name. The hype created by Ola marketing team is extraordinary. My neighbors decided to get the S1 Pro based on the hype despite my family using and recommending the Ather 450x.

Now is the time for the large players to adapt or die out. Their electric offerings without significant R&D will be nothing more than assembly of Chinese components and those scooters are dime a dozen. Perhaps they need to go shopping for R&D expertise. They are really good startup firms in the space with excellent R&D. Let us see, these are interesting times.

As a note, acquisition doesn’t mean success as can be seen in the case of REVA. It was a wasted opportunity.

[zehhatter]

Originally Posted by GTO

Tesla is an outlier because of Musk, technology (still the best EVs) & their early-mover advantage, but for most other newer EV companies, I sort of agree with Bajaj. The entrenched players have an enormous advantage in terms of manufacturing strength, supplier base, distribution, branding etc. If the only USP of a new EV company is electric technology, it's very easy for the incumbents to catch up. And they are closing the gap fast. See in the car world, how the Taycan is already giving the Model S a tough fight, despite being priced higher. The electric Ford F150 is also a game-changer. The existing car & bike players will be a bit late to the EV scene, but they will offer a more complete ownership experience due to their infrastructure (including service, reliability etc.). Mass production isn't easy - even 2021 Teslas have several build quality issues and their after-sales service still sucks.

Definitely!
Even though it's rapidly growing, the EV sector is still at nascent stage and manufacturers need to invest a lot in R&D to deliver a fully loaded product as their reputation is also at line, small car manufacturers can take a risk and under deliver but for premium brands, it's a different story. Which was evident in the I-pace with multiple issues plaguing it since launch. Premium players are similar to Apple in my opinion. Android users mock apple of introducing features a couple of years later after it was introduced in Android but what they miss is that apple first observes the tech, studies the user experience and then introduces it a couple of years later, the apple version is always more intuitive and polished. Similarly, premium manufacturers will observe the competition, fine tune it and then launch a product which will slowly eclipse the Teslas. In my opinion, Teslas are glorified gadgets pushed to popularity due to the social media, a properly engineered car like a Taycan is definitely leagues ahead of it.

[Sebring]

Generational shift is always there in Technology. Tomorrow, if a novel Company takes a lead in Hydrogen tech - can we call Ola, Ather as relics of the past? Each Company has his time in the spotlight. Likewise Bajaj had its time and is past its prime, I could say. Looking back, I count the twin spark-plug engine in Pulsar as one of their innovations. Discover brought so many goodies to the 'Splendour Market', back then. Yes, they couldn't leapfrog their scooters to the next gen. That's their only fault

[saumitra_joshi]

I am a proud owner of a Ather Series 1 - basically I booked it in Jan 2020 and got it delivered in December. Why Ather? A couple of reasons but the most important one: It is a company which I found had the right mindset in designing proper two wheeler for the Indian market. Guess what: Ather 450X has been preceded with S340 for couple of years where hard lessons were learned. And solutions found. In another thread, I had written about how many patents Ather has filed with respect to electrics from public information: IIRC upward of 50 patents! As an aside, Bajaj has a sum total of 1 patent for an electric auto rickshaw. 'nuff said.

I completely agree with the sentiment that existing manufacturers have a huge head start and resources to get into the EV space compared to start ups like Ather. But it is incorrect to assume that just because they can do IC engines, they would be able to do EVs equally well without adequate R&D. As an example, heard it from somebody who works for Bajaj Auto, the electric Chetak would not start at all under high tension wires. Take it for what it's worth but the fact that a start up could roll out a product like 450X and sell much more numbers than Bajaj tells you everything you need to know about the investments in R&D. And contrary to what we may think, EV design is not just about electrics: BMS requires a complex, multi disciplinary design and is not just about having a controller for electrics: Battery charge and discharge cycles require excellent thermal design of the battery case, battery design and complex algorithms to ensure excellent battery life. For those interested in details you can read this

One of the reasons why I love Ather is the fact that they are quite transparent about the technology and those interested can learn a lot. My worry with Ola is that they have acquired Etergo technology and plans to mass manufacture but not sure whether they will be able to get it to run in Indian conditions on first go and actually get the "Know Why" and not just the "Know How". As aside, IIRC in IC Engines, Bajaj still uses the piston technology from Kawasaki days!!

When I chose to back Ather with my hard earned money, transparency and the fact that this was a start up seriously trying to change the world were the decision making points. And I am super happy with the product. Also, I am clear that to the extent possible, my hard earned money is not going to most private companies that thrived due to the license quota raj