[pranavshet]

Respected Members,

I would like to pen down some of my thoughts on how competition is planning to counter RE and whether would it be the right approach or not.

Let's go company-wise.

1. Honda: All it has done is tried to create a polished or refined version of earlier classic. RE has countered it effectively by launching next-gen classic with J series platform which is equally good if not better. Despite being in the market for around 2 years highness has not been able to breach the 5000 units a month mark.
My observations: Honda didnt play to it's strengths. It could have given people the taste of their 400 or 500 cc twins ie CBR 400f/r or cbr500r/f.
The engine on highness though refined doesn't have that honda character.
I think cb350rs should have been equipped with a 350 cc liquid-cooled engine. It could have been a retro naked thing properly done.
If nothing then honda should have launched cb300r at rupees lakh lesser than the current price and complimented it with the fully faired version in the form of CBR 300R.

All honda has done is imitate RE and endorse its ideology of classic leisure motorcycling.

2. Jawa/ Yezdi/ Classic Legends

Jawa started their campaign with a bang evoking the strong emotion of good old times. They also got the silhouette of the Jawa Jawa bang on when you compare it with the original one. They messed big time in logistics supply chain and demand forecasting I still can't understand why didn't they launch Jawa with dual channel ABS right from the word go. It would have cost an additional 10k but it would have set precedent for other manufacturers to follow.

Also, I feel they should have developed all new engine platform for Jawa rather than using the mojo engine. No doubt mojo's engine is top notch but I'm not convinced whether it can be adapted for other applications or whether it's scalable.
The engine on Jawa/Yezdi is not as refined as on mojo. The build quality and quality of certain components used by classic legends is questionable. This kind of issue should not be there when you are charging upwards of 1.75 lakhs. Also, their sales/ marketing on the ground is just average.
The less I say about the sales performance the better it is. It is struggling to sell even 3k units a month. Currently, they are having close to 6 products in the lineup. It's pathetic. It would be a shame if Mahindra pulls the plug on classic legends in the future.

3. Bajaj: I liked what bajaj had shown in auto exo 2014 ie pulsar cs400 & ss400. The CS400 was a kind of halo product with all the greatest and latest bits from bajaj.

But unfortunately what we got was dominar a somewhat diluted version of CS 400 concept. The SS400 concept was shelved. We got RS200 instead.
The way the concept of dominar was communicated to it's prospective customers was horrendous. They should have focussed on creating a niche for themselves instead of directly targeting RE Classic. Dominar was a different animal altogether. I still don't get why dominar 400 is offered only in 2 colours. Why no white color or blue colour is not available?

The only good bits they have done is through KTM by launching Adv 390,250, Duke & RC in 200-390 guises.

But one piece of news hit me hard. I don't know why bajaj/ ktm shelved 490 /590 parallel twin-engine project. It would have been a sporty alternative to 650 twins from RE.

Now we have been observing various spy shots of RE rival being developed in conjunction with triumph. I hope it has a certain differentiating factor that will set it apart from the crowd. I also hope it's not just one bike story. I hope they will come up with twins as well.

TVS: TVS attempted its direct rival in the form of ronin for the hunter. The design of the bike is so confusing and so cluttered that I still don't get it whether these are the same guys who designed RR310.

RR310 is their halo product. But I think it also requires a twin-cylinder sibling. I read somewhere that TVS is working on a twin-cylinder engine with BMW. I really hope that the project is progressing well.

We want products from TVS in the upper tier which are consistent with their DNA. The Ronin sorely lacked that. You can be different from RE and can still gain market share. It all depends on how good the product is and how well it is positioned or marketed.


I will be writing the Part II in another post. Would love to know your views on the same guys Till then take care and ride safe guys. Wishing you & your loved ones a safe & prosperous year ahead . Till then take care & ride safe.

Regards.

[drt_rdr]

REs are enjoyable in their own right. I can't deny I've enjoyed my time on various REs. But the competition is also... very competent.

The Jawas and Yezdis are very fun bikes, and arguably more usable than similar REs across a wide gamut of scenarios. The Jawas have been more agile and more responsive than the RE Hunter about whose supposed agility a lot of noise was made. The Yezdi Adventure out-himalayans the RE Himalayan. The Perak and Scrambler grab eyeballs like nothing else at the price. Yet all these barely sell compared to RE. People complain about build quality of these, but it has to be remembered RE hasn't had anything resembling good build quality until very recently.

Riding a Honda CB350 back to back with a Classic 350 will tell you the CB is objectively the better built bike. The weight balance across the chassis hides the 180 kgs well and handles confidently, the smooth throttle-drivetrain response is a joy, the engine while not as luggable as an RE is still a very easy thing to live with, and the build quality certainly looks better than RE. An amazing 1:1 alternative to RE 350s, yet they're not even doing a quarter of the sales as RE.

The Ronin is a well bred horse by TVS. The engine tuning, the handling character and the overall confidence of the package still has me a bit smitten. People confused about whether it's this or that or bla bla will get clarity by just riding the thing. The answer that becomes obvious is: "all of the above." Atleast functionally if not in terms of appearance. Functionally, it's an RE beater in almost every department.

So, why are they not able to get even with RE, atleast the cheaper REs, despite trying every trick in the book??

I mean, RE has flourished all these years after its revival despite the products having unforgivable mechanical issues. We've all read countless accounts of poor fit and finish, parts falling off while riding, unexpected failures and early wear, poor service (though this one can be said for most manufacturers), the more recent chassis break fiascoes and of course the vibration. I've got friends and relatives suffering through their RE purchases, compromising on how they want to ride for fear of their machines giving up the ghost on them.

The bikes themselves weren't even competent for a long time in terms of power output and handling for the asking price. It's only recently that they seem to have pulled their socks up somewhat. Even then, the competition is either doing things better than the bread and butter REs or head-to-head with them.

So, why then do people flock to RE?

The problem is not with the products other companies are putting out to compete with RE. These are all worthy products in their own right.

Part of the thing is that the Indian mass mindset suffers from issues that won't let them move past idol worship.

I think the reason people buy RE is mostly for the clout of owning an RE. Maybe people on TBHP and the likes may look into every little aspect and make a purchase, but most people don't have time for that. Word of mouth is good enough because that's what runs society. And word of mouth is that REs are manly, they're macho, their bigness imparts some bigth onto you as well and gets you restecp in your circles and outside. You just can't ignore the street cred aspect in a meme society like ours.

Another part of the thing is the question of time. There was no proper alternative to a classic styled bike that is "made of metal, not plastic" for a long time other than mucking around with 2 strokes. The competition have barely been in the market for a couple years now, while RE has had a loooooong time to dig itself comfortably into the minds of the average indian and prop itself up to Rajnikanth levels of glorification. But give it a few more years, these competitors may graduate from nibbling at the ankles of RE to possibly chomping a limb off.

[Grimlock]

RE seem to be lightyears ahead right now. From the amount of products they have planned to launch, to how they have gone about MIY, or related merchandising (tie ups with Levis, Alpine stars), and expansion overseas (where they seem to be the darling of all reviews) They seem to be the few 2w manufacturer's nowadays who have a pulse on what the market needs and actually go about developing products in time for this.

Whatever the competition is doing right now CB 350 / Ronin / Jawa should have been done maybe early 2010s to have a chance of catching up with RE, when they had their UCE engine era.

It helps that they have been actively reacting to this competion (J series / new 450 engines and related bikes to take on existing and new competition if any in the future).

Along with a nostalgia factor to top it all off, they also seem to have an Xfactor where the media does not point out any actual flaws in their reviews!. Unless they bungle it (again) with quality issues, / there is an overnight move to EVs it might be hard to catch up to them.

[Senotrius]

Honda needs to sell their 350 through the local Honda dealership and not bigwing alone. Or they should increase the bigwing outlet numbers to match local dealership levels. It's a popular model where there are bigwing outlets, in the city that is. I see no other reason for lack of sales-accessibility.

[KPR]

I feel there's scope for all players here. Can RE make light weight commuters in 110cc and succeed? So it is not about beating RE it is about even we are in the segment type of competition going on at around 2Lakh price.

[Black_Star]

Originally Posted by Senotrius

Honda needs to sell their 350 through the local Honda dealership and not bigwing alone. Or they should increase the bigwing outlet numbers to match local dealership levels. It's a popular model where there are bigwing outlets, in the city that is. I see no other reason for lack of sales-accessibility.

This and maybe rethink the Big Wing strategy, currently Honda has barred them from serving any motorcycle above 500c. So effectively they are just selling and servicing 5 bikes only. For 500 and above only Big Wing Topline can sell and service them.

As such this is a big limitation for both for the customers and company.

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by drt_rdr

The Ronin is a well bred horse by TVS. Functionally, it's an RE beater in almost every department.

So, why are they not able to get even with RE, atleast the cheaper REs, despite trying every trick in the book??

I mean, RE has flourished all these years after its revival despite the products having unforgivable mechanical issues. the competition is either doing things better than the bread and butter REs or head-to-head with them.

So, why then do people flock to RE?

It is like wearing Wrangler jeans sometime back. No matter how better your "Flying Machine" jeans was, it was no "Wrangler". This is a similar syndrome. All the faults of the bike will be termed as "heritage" "Character" etc. Tinkering around and living with it's constant quirks is joyfully accepted as a rite of passage to belong in the club. And for a couple of generations in the past, the Bullet was the epitome of motorcycling, the constant police and army orders for them adding an aura. That impression still remains. It has become an aspirational brand.

The only brand that can give RE a run for the money at present is another similar behemoth from America, the Harley! For arguement's sake let us say the Harleys are offered in India at the same price or slightly more than RE bikes, what will be the most likely outcome?! I bet RE sales will drop by half right away if not more. Most buyers will readily move to the bigger aspiration.

[shortbread]

Folk blaming RE's growing success down to 'Indian mass mindset' or 'nostalgia' etc... need to look at RE's growing international sales. In fact in many developed markets they lead their respective segments despite the presence of Japanese majors or cheap chinese alternatives.

While the RE horror stories of the past are absolutely true, the new generation of RE products have top notch build quality and design, on par with global competition if not better. Jawas, Dominars, Hondas, Yezdis etc... made a lot of noise/hype at launch, spend massive advertising budgets and then quietly fade away. Most of their launch campaigns aim squarely against RE, but the Indian giant has a no nonsense, zero drama approach to their business.

[Senotrius]

Plus it didn't help that dominar 400 was itself heavy and still has quality issues. And doesn't anyone feel the Honda 350 is underpowered? Looks of the RE, are still I believe, the reason for sales. Have to hand them that.

[am1m]

RE leads this segment because they have spent a lot of time and effort building and marketing their image. Whatever may be the quality of the products- and I say this as an RE owner dissatisfied with their QC and service quality since 2007- no one comes close to their branding, sales, and marketing.

The simple fact is- what new bike today in the 2-3L range can you buy in India and use for comfortable 2-up touring with luggage?

There was nothing outside of RE back in 2007 (that time my budget was 1L) when I was looking (and believe me I really wanted to avoid buying an RE and becoming identified with their riding clubs and "brotherhood" nonsense. Of course, that's IMHO, I know a lot of people like that aspect of RE, I don't)) and I still don't see an alternative now outside of the RE stable, more than 15 years later.

The Dominar on paper seems good, but somehow doesn't seem to have taken off. The Mojo and Jawa got the standard Mahindra treatment for all their 2-wheelers, bad sales.

The Honda 350 seems the best competitor, but Honda doesn't seem capable of executing anything like the marketing campaigns of RE or building such a cult following. There is another thread on experiences at bike showrooms. (https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor...oms-india.html (Pathetic state of affairs at 2-Wheeler showrooms in India)) Guess which brand most people complain about arrogance and not getting test rides? Honda. And which brand people say provides as many test rides as the customer wants? RE. But let's see how it goes, the Honda product is solid, hope they improve.

We've been waiting for a 250-300cc Impulse/Xpulse forever, where is it?

So, even though I'm no RE fan, I have to say, it's going to take a lot, lot more from the competition to derail them in this segment. And they seem to be improving on the quality front too, while I still won't buy another RE, I've taken test rides and been quite impressed by all their new models.

[ValkyrieAB]

I own a Honda, a CB350RS and I’ll try to be as unbiased as possible.
The reasons I bought the Honda over the RE were as follows:
1. The engine is super smooth, good power, and reliability is generally Honda’s strength. It doesn’t get as hot in BLR traffic. Also i don’t think the statement that the J series engine is “as good if not better” is true in my opinion. It‘s smooth but not even close to the Honda unit.
2. The handling is miles ahead of an RE. It’s light, nimble and feels much easier to manage in traffic.
3. Fell in love with the looks of the RS (the Highness not so much). The RE equivalent of the RS, the Hunter, just seems very diminutive and lacks road presence.

As for the argument that the Honda sales figures are low:
Selling a tenth of the bikes in 2 years of launch, despite being costlier to buy with only 50 showrooms across India is actually a big achievement. You have to realise that they’re missing out on sales from most B&C tier cities (nobody wants to travel hundreds of kms to get their bike serviced).

I have two friends looking to buy a bike in this segment:
Friend 1: Won’t even look at anything other than an RE. Says the feel of an RE is unmatched - I get it. The RE is comfortable and has excellent road presence and if you’re willing to compromise on points 1,2 & 3, is a great bike. In his own words: “RE chalane ke baad baaki sab bikes churan chutney lagti hai”. He’s from Mumbai and rides an older RE. I didn’t understand the statement but the underlying sentiment was clear
Friend 2 : More open minded and willing to try but he just seems hesitant to buy anything but the RE. It’s almost a mental roadblock. He loved how the Honda drove. He’s shorter so the better weight distribution is also a big plus. His family though has a few REs and he seems hesitant to break the tradition.

RE occupies significant mindspace in India and that’s going to be the hardest to overcome for any competitor. It’s not going to be about the features or quality or refinement only. The messaging needs to be about lifestyle, about the pride of ownership and also about community. There’s almost this imperceptible feeling that if you meet an RE owner, he MUST have taken his bike to Ladakh (which is quite far from the truth).
At REs end, they need to keep refining the engine, keeping their excellent quality levels up, and bringing in more reliability. Stuff like assist clutch are also going to be critical in coming years (look at the success of automatic transmissions in the car industry). RE as a company though do seem to have a good hold on their future and it’ll be hard to dethrone them. We’ve seen market leaders collapse in their time though so never taken anything for granted.

[Mustang_Boss]

This is what we have seen in our domestic market. A brand goofs up something and they start going down. Be it a bad product or bad marketing or bad service or cost cutting somewhere.

I am not a Guru, but these are my Observations:
- Honda they enters 2 wheeler market legally in 2014/2016. Today they are almost #1. With their Activa, Unicorn, Shine and other products which no one remembers. Having a few GOOD products does the job of taking one to #1.

- Bajaj on the other hand named all their products to PULSAR and people don't want any more pulsars. KTM's are for the expensive boys. So, they didn't help much. Why did they rely on a single name Pulsar? When they are healthy, they didn't risk entering into new areas. But, they aggressively pursued Dominar, which is much expensive than pulsars. But, Bajaj customers want more mileage.

- Profitability is not exactly directly correlated to unit of sales. Service does contribute too. Clearly from Bajaj numbers, and their expensive products bringing in higher revenue from service. And TVS Lags here (atleast in my state).

- Honda, looks like its expanding its wings, like in its logo. Slowly they are ramping up the products from BigWing, with an exceptional support from the revenue of Activa. Still no hit other than CB, but they are on the Crease. Where as for RE, the Bullets are the lifeline. Nothing else is on the table.

- The name of the game is Marketing & inducing a snob value into people's minds. Which is difficult for a company like Honda. RE is the king here. Hands Down. The way they marketed the Military-Green color and the impact it had is hugggge.

- TVS badly needs another name, like Lexus with Toyota. They need to start a sub brand and start expanding. Their products are very good and can give honda a run for their money, but they are not actively pursuing. Why not? Maruti & Korean twins are doing the same in 4 wheelers and it is immensely successful.

- Mahindra's strategy is Good & Bad. Their service center network needs more volumes to survive, which they cannot attain without selling cheaper, reliable and fuel efficient products. This is the reason why they failed so many times, again and again, by doing the same mistake. They did Bajaj + TVS = Mahindra thing, but they ended their brand abruptly. What's their long game is not clear.

- No mention of Hero. as i haven't yet see significant Impacting products. Till date, no advert from Hero like the CBZ/Karizma adverts.

I think RE is everyone's Target and every brand wants its Pie. Will RE be able to retain its pie, when 3/4 major global dogs are actively after it? Their act with their Firing and re-hiring their CEO shows a corporate governance weakness & ability. It looks like their strength is derived from only a few people. They are in the Crosshairs of 3/4 well funded risk takers, whose primary goal is to grab the Pie from RE.

[shortbread]

The new liquid cooled engined models that RE are working on (2023 launch), will be a big departure for the company. If these models gain traction in the domestic and export markets, it will be a game changer for RE.

[RD150]

Below are some reasons I feel why RE has been enjoying the monopoly for decades.

1. Macho/Definitely Male image : Bullet/Classic has been the first choice for heros/villains/policemen in the Indian movies. If it makes you look cool/macho, why not?

2. Size/Presence to money ratio: If I am spending 2+ lacs, I should be able to justify the price to my friends and relatives. Its fine even if I struggle sometimes to park my bike on center stand or struggle to make my way through tight spaces. Size definitely matters here

3. Pre,post sales experience : This is where RE definitely deserves a pat on the back. The wide sales and service network definitely is a plus point.

4. J Series engines: The J series engines made sure that even the RE haters will start admiring the vibration free ride experience.

The competition on the other hand is making half baked attempts.

Jawas/yezdis suffered from quality issues right from day one. They are still struggling to increase the dealer network even after 4 years. They have the potential, and I really hope they dont give up.

Honda Highness is a much better product, it will sell in huge numbers if normal dealers start selling them.

Competition needs to make sure their bikes are a part of bollywood/tollywood/Indian movies. This is not difficult at all.

Competition needs to make sure, they iron out the niggles and quality issues. Because this was the only thing which kept some people away from RE bikes. The new RE products are much better built.

All the best to the competition !!

[TorqueMonster]

As someone who has an RE and constantly gets to ride both a Honda and a JAWA regularly, I think its a mix of both excellent marketing, and a constant change with time that's helping RE.

My Thunderbird was bought in 2011, a time where there is no affordable aspirational brand for bikes, other than Royal Enfield. The best Bajaj was the 220, the best Yamaha was an R15, nothing for touring by any brands. This, coupled with biking as a means of travelling, resulted in RE having a monopoly over the affordable touring sector. Yet, sales were low, because RE's of the time were very flawed, in both Quality and Service, and secondly the dreaded vibrations. My experiences with RE are well detailed on the thread on my bike.

But with time, RE has made itself more modern. Its not some very highly modern change too, its just minimum change that makes a person otherwise ignore the flaws present. We had a lot of people buy the Classic when it was launched, since it was a good looking Enfield, a departure from the Bullet and the Thunderbird. Then came the next radical change with the Himalayan, with a new 411 engine, a purpose made tourer. Yes, its a model known for unreliability, but what it did offer was slightly more tech than the average enfield, and slightly lesser vibrations. The technique of retaining the same experiences associated with the enfield, but with more user friendly changes, continues with the J Series equipped Meteor, Classic and Hunter. The engine is still pretty much having an enfield like character, but it has lesser vibrations, ensuring that people who may otherwise not want to buy an enfield might give it a shot. Then we have the 650's, bike in my Opinion is well priced, to be an option for first time bikes of a + 3 lakh budget, and also be an upgrade option for existing owners. I've ridden the Meteor before, and its still some 80 - 85% of same characteristics of my Thunderbird, its just a more modernized Thunderbird, with some of the flaws I've experienced on my bike resolved.

The marketing side of RE as a lifestyle brand has been pretty much well known and I don't need to elaborate on that. This, plus RE using such a good image and making changes in its bike to bring in people who would otherwise not buy an RE is what I believe is a reason for RE's monopoly. So due to this, there is nothing much competitors can do, as RE has a target base that would actively buy its bikes, and the brand aggressively seeking consumers outside such a base. The Honda is an excellent bike, and honestly, except for maybe the taller gearing than the RE is a much better bike in all aspects, but it has no legacy, or sentiment to back itself. The JAWA and Yezdi are high on sentiment, but I have found it to be an alright bike, but it has a lot of flaws, seat is too low, and some areas have quality equivalent to a previous gen Enfield, not a standard to be set by a modern motorcycle.

I think the only true competitor to the RE is Honda, but for it to counter RE, brand building is what it needs, a legacy is needed. The JAWA could have been a good opportunity, but the entire long booking time fiasco, and the quality and service being underwhelming has killed off the brand as a feasible competitor