Safe Braking Techniques for Two-Wheelers

Sawyer · 21st July 2009, 16:26

Is that front brake thing still not dead???!! In which case, we will not even talk about countersteering. At least in the old days, people used to validly argue that if that was the case, why was the brake light switch absent on the front brake - as it was on my Yezdi and most other Indian bikes when I took up biking. I was happy to see that this had changed by the time I came back to biking a couple of years ago, but I see that this may not be completely true.
I guess this is India - and progress can be painstakingly slow. But we'll get there, one of these days!
On the crash bar subect, for this thread with just as much respect I think no one can do more, so I will shut up henceforth.

bantejas · 21st July 2009, 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sawyer

Is that front brake thing still not dead???!! In which case, we will not even talk about countersteering.

! I can't just stop laughing!!!!

Sawyer · 21st July 2009, 17:51

On the front brake subject, here is a question though. In the eighties, the science was that given the weight of the engine below you, and the braking power that could be generated by the brakes, and the front tyre traction available given the quality of the rubber, long before the dreaded " you will be thrown over the handlebars" myth could happen, you would have lost the traction on the front, and have skidded anyway. So the one thing you did not ought to worry about, was the myth. Given too the speeds from which we stopped, a lot lower than bikes have to today. Today's bikes go faster, have brakes that are a lot more powerful, and tyres that are a lot stickier, so does that mean the one could actually tip over the bike by slamming the front brakes on, before the front slides out? Does that then mean a valid rebirth of that myth?
PS: I know that I never have to worry about this on my Bullet, the front MRF tubed tyre will let go long before the bike can even dream about a front flip. Besides, I never go fast enough to generate that kind of momentum. But how about bikes like the new fast bikes with high quality rubber and front discs?

bantejas · 22nd July 2009, 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sawyer

Is that front brake thing still not dead???!! In which case, we will not even talk about countersteering.

Off topic, but I just wanted to know which thread ur referring to? There are a couple of threads on the same. I don't know much about braking, but I mostly use the front more than the backs. Reason: it skids when i use the back brakes and its purely experience. Never thought about it though and want to know the details.

Sawyer · 22nd July 2009, 10:51

You are doing the right thing, as your experience has taught you. However a rear wheel skid on a bike is easy to recover from, lose the front wheel, and you are down for sure, unless you are Mick Doohan! So the thing is to never use the front brake where the surface is poor - as in gravel, slush, suspicion of oil, etc. And to use it very cautiously when you are tilted over in a turn.
The rear skids easily because the weight gets transferred to the front, and it this that also gives the front its immense braking power. And that is why if bikes are equipped with more than one discbrake, it is the front that gets the two discs. Or even one, while keeping drums at the rear.
Detail enough? Because I was not referring to any other thread. Unless you want to talk countersteering!!! That will open another can of worms here.

bantejas · 22nd July 2009, 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sawyer

You are doing the right thing, as your experience has taught you. However a rear wheel skid on a bike is easy to recover from, lose the front wheel, and you are down for sure, unless you are Mick Doohan! So the thing is to never use the front brake where the surface is poor - as in gravel, slush, suspicion of oil, etc. And to use it very cautiously when you are tilted over in a turn.

The rear skids easily because the weight gets transferred to the front, and it this that also gives the front its immense braking power. And that is why if bikes are equipped with more than one discbrake, it is the front that gets the two discs. Or even one, while keeping drums at the rear.
Detail enough? Because I was not referring to any other thread. Unless you want to talk countersteering!!! That will open another can of worms here.

Again off topic. Mods, do I need to start another thread on the same?

Yeps! Thanks a ton! I do the same on gravel: I use the fronts cautiously along with the back brakes. I have been riding for quite donkey's yrs and experience does really teaches a lot. I am scared of people who use only back brakes as I've had good (in fact awesome) skids and I have been able to get out of them too! On turns, I make sure that I don't brake at all (some times I need to use but then I am pretty cautious on turns).

bblost · 22nd July 2009, 12:15

Turns, engine braking anyone?

Sawyer · 22nd July 2009, 12:23

Experience is a great teacher if you live long enough! The thing about turns is that you should have finished with your braking before you lean over, and then accelerate through and out of the turn. The bike is stable in a turn only when the rear wheel has drive. Which means that you must have read the turn conditions early on, and proceed only after that at the speed that is decided after this. Sounds complicated, but it comes naturally with practice.
Last word on the braking though - a little after you hit the fronts, use the rears also to stabilize the bike. 70/30 braking effort, front and back.
A formally structured motorcycle riding training school would be a great thing in India, I think.

Technocrat · 22nd July 2009, 12:26

@bblost: Yep almost always

rjstyles69 · 22nd July 2009, 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Technocrat

@bblost: Yep almost always

Food for thought !! Couldn't agree any better on this concept than doing panic braking and then talk of loosing control.

bantejas · 22nd July 2009, 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by bblost

Turns, engine braking anyone?

exactly engine braking + front brakes on tarmac. engine brake + rear brakes + light front brake on gravel road.

Sawyer · 22nd July 2009, 13:14

Engine braking is good in a straight line, but remember that a bike without drive to the rear wheels is unstable in a turn. It is the drive to the rear wheel that reinforces the gyroscopic effect that allows it to remain standing on just the two wheels.

Technocrat · 22nd July 2009, 13:18

Please elaborate.

What you have mentioned sounds as if the engine is disengaged while turning.

I know many people who press clutch while turning & which IMHO is a bad practice.

Sawyer · 22nd July 2009, 13:44

You want to be keeping the bike stable on both suspension ends in the turn, with a preference for some squatting on the rear end. In engine braking you are losing speed coming through the turn, with more weight on the front suspension and increasing the relative strength of gravity v centrifugal force. Pressing the clutch and turning is even worse, and we get away it in India because our bikes are light enough to yank over straight again by body movements - do it on a leaned over Harley in a slow turn, and down you will go.
The drive to the rear wheel balances out the two forces at play on you in a turn.
That is theory.
Then there is the seat of pants feel. Try all three on an open road, and you will immediately realize how much more stable the bike feels in the turn when the rear wheel is getting drive.

Technocrat · 22nd July 2009, 14:19

I know what you have posted above.

I am confused by this statement of yours

Quote:

Engine braking is good in a straight line, but remember that a bike without drive to the rear wheels is unstable in a turn.

If one is engine braking why would there be no drive to rear wheels?

21st July 2009, 16:26	#1
Sawyer Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pune Posts: 2,677 Thanked: 1,786 Times	Safe Braking Techniques for Two-Wheelers Is that front brake thing still not dead???!! In which case, we will not even talk about countersteering. At least in the old days, people used to validly argue that if that was the case, why was the brake light switch absent on the front brake - as it was on my Yezdi and most other Indian bikes when I took up biking. I was happy to see that this had changed by the time I came back to biking a couple of years ago, but I see that this may not be completely true. I guess this is India - and progress can be painstakingly slow. But we'll get there, one of these days! On the crash bar subect, for this thread with just as much respect I think no one can do more, so I will shut up henceforth.
	() Thanks

21st July 2009, 17:51	#3
Sawyer Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pune Posts: 2,677 Thanked: 1,786 Times	On the front brake subject, here is a question though. In the eighties, the science was that given the weight of the engine below you, and the braking power that could be generated by the brakes, and the front tyre traction available given the quality of the rubber, long before the dreaded " you will be thrown over the handlebars" myth could happen, you would have lost the traction on the front, and have skidded anyway. So the one thing you did not ought to worry about, was the myth. Given too the speeds from which we stopped, a lot lower than bikes have to today. Today's bikes go faster, have brakes that are a lot more powerful, and tyres that are a lot stickier, so does that mean the one could actually tip over the bike by slamming the front brakes on, before the front slides out? Does that then mean a valid rebirth of that myth? PS: I know that I never have to worry about this on my Bullet, the front MRF tubed tyre will let go long before the bike can even dream about a front flip. Besides, I never go fast enough to generate that kind of momentum. But how about bikes like the new fast bikes with high quality rubber and front discs? Last edited by Sawyer : 21st July 2009 at 17:55. Reason: PS
	() Thanks

22nd July 2009, 10:51	#5
Sawyer Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pune Posts: 2,677 Thanked: 1,786 Times	You are doing the right thing, as your experience has taught you. However a rear wheel skid on a bike is easy to recover from, lose the front wheel, and you are down for sure, unless you are Mick Doohan! So the thing is to never use the front brake where the surface is poor - as in gravel, slush, suspicion of oil, etc. And to use it very cautiously when you are tilted over in a turn. The rear skids easily because the weight gets transferred to the front, and it this that also gives the front its immense braking power. And that is why if bikes are equipped with more than one discbrake, it is the front that gets the two discs. Or even one, while keeping drums at the rear. Detail enough? Because I was not referring to any other thread. Unless you want to talk countersteering!!! That will open another can of worms here.
	() Thanks

22nd July 2009, 12:15	#7
bblost Team-BHP Support Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Hyderabad Posts: 11,008 Thanked: 15,366 Times View My Garage	Turns, engine braking anyone?
	() Thanks

22nd July 2009, 12:23	#8
Sawyer Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pune Posts: 2,677 Thanked: 1,786 Times	Experience is a great teacher if you live long enough! The thing about turns is that you should have finished with your braking before you lean over, and then accelerate through and out of the turn. The bike is stable in a turn only when the rear wheel has drive. Which means that you must have read the turn conditions early on, and proceed only after that at the speed that is decided after this. Sounds complicated, but it comes naturally with practice. Last word on the braking though - a little after you hit the fronts, use the rears also to stabilize the bike. 70/30 braking effort, front and back. A formally structured motorcycle riding training school would be a great thing in India, I think.
	() Thanks

22nd July 2009, 12:26	#9
Technocrat Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: GTA Posts: 14,813 Thanked: 2,700 Times	@bblost: Yep almost always Last edited by Technocrat : 22nd July 2009 at 12:28.
	() Thanks

22nd July 2009, 13:14	#12
Sawyer Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pune Posts: 2,677 Thanked: 1,786 Times	Engine braking is good in a straight line, but remember that a bike without drive to the rear wheels is unstable in a turn. It is the drive to the rear wheel that reinforces the gyroscopic effect that allows it to remain standing on just the two wheels.
	() Thanks

22nd July 2009, 13:18	#13
Technocrat Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: GTA Posts: 14,813 Thanked: 2,700 Times	Please elaborate. What you have mentioned sounds as if the engine is disengaged while turning. I know many people who press clutch while turning & which IMHO is a bad practice.
	() Thanks

22nd July 2009, 13:44	#14
Sawyer Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pune Posts: 2,677 Thanked: 1,786 Times	You want to be keeping the bike stable on both suspension ends in the turn, with a preference for some squatting on the rear end. In engine braking you are losing speed coming through the turn, with more weight on the front suspension and increasing the relative strength of gravity v centrifugal force. Pressing the clutch and turning is even worse, and we get away it in India because our bikes are light enough to yank over straight again by body movements - do it on a leaned over Harley in a slow turn, and down you will go. The drive to the rear wheel balances out the two forces at play on you in a turn. That is theory. Then there is the seat of pants feel. Try all three on an open road, and you will immediately realize how much more stable the bike feels in the turn when the rear wheel is getting drive.
	() Thanks