![]() | #16 |
Senior - BHPian ![]() Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chandigarh/Mohali/Ambala Cantt
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| ![]() Sheet metal thickness may not be a big deal when it comes to actual ratings,owing to crumple zones,safety features and all. Call me old school,however; just for the feel of it, in my books its a big deal. Once you get used to the vault like feel, the assuring thud of the doors and good suspension behavior ,its pretty hard to go back to a car that feels light and flimsy.(its safety rating may be higher though.) |
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![]() | #17 | |||
BHPian ![]() Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: kochi
Posts: 468
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Are you talking about the all new Honda city? Is it that flimsily build? I knew there were people complaining about cost cutting in the new city, but never took it that serious. I am asking this because I currently own a late 2012 Honda city VMT, a Honda brio and a VW GT TDI. I drive these three back to back on a daily basis. I have no idea what these "flimsiness" of Hondas everybody talks about is. Sure the Brio feels cheap compared to the Polo. But then it has to be because it is significantly cheaper. But between the city and the Gt, there is nothing in it other than the lighter doors, hood and boot-lid. Everything else in the city , the interiors, the plastics, the build quality inside feels just as fine to me. Also the city has done nearly twice the miles of the GT, done quite a few outstation trips, gone through roads that would give a Duster a good workout and still after 2 years feels just like new apart from the dirty seats. The polo on the other hands puts up some rattles and creaks now and again on really bad roads. So there you go the city is just as competently build like the polo,is just as safe but without the really heavy doors. The thing is though the Polo actually weighs quite a bit more than the city and that is just disturbing me. Think about it. Why is a hatchback weighing more than a considerably more spacious sedan. It doesn't need to. Had the polo weighed as much as a hatchback of its size should be weighing, my Gt would have been even more faster than it already is. The fact is if maruti had launched a swift with 90bhp it would easily be a match for my Gt despite the 15bhp power deficiency because my polo weighs 150 kilos more. 150 kilos of unnecessary weight that shouldn't be there. 150 kilos that just serves to make the door go thud. This is what is bothering me. IMO The thick sheet metal build of german cars is highly overrated and is actually more of a burden to its cars. Quote:
Yeah I know the details, high-revving N/A vs turbocharged engine debate can never be brought to an end. But still that T-jet could have been a really fast 9 second to 100 car had it not been so porky. (Sorry had to say it) Last edited by nakul0888 : 28th September 2014 at 17:53. | |||
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![]() | #18 |
BHPian ![]() Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Garden City
Posts: 482
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![]() | #19 | |
BHPian ![]() Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Vellore(TN,Ind)
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![]() For example take an Elantra and an Octavia. The Elantra is significantly lighter and has the same safety features as the Octavia but both have received 5 stars in NCAP tests. So I think safety features are the primary things that matter. Sheet metal thickness is just for the "feel good factor" and nothing else when it's about premium cars. And another important factor is the chassis of the car. A Monocoque chassis is much better than a Body on frame chassis in terms of safety. But few manufacturers overlook this fact and create those "butch" SUV's that have nothing when it comes to safety. Cheers, Achyuth Last edited by Achyuth Vaibhav : 28th September 2014 at 18:05. | |
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![]() | #20 |
BHPian ![]() Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Utsunomiya, HYD
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| ![]() Interesting discussion. While I agree to most points raised by fellow members about comparing heavier vehicles with similar features, I think it's the mass of the BIW that needs to be compared, as most of mass(~1/2 - 2/3rd of GVW) is of the accessories(say PT, Suspension, Trims, etc). Thickness of a Sheetmetal does make a difference, by a big margin. Every manufacturer has their own target to achieve from safety, Durability and Stiffness point of view, though safety drives the vehicle development. With lighter materials being considered these days, it's obvious that the gauge of the Sheetmetal has to be raised by few manufacturers, but not the overall mass. Correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks for starting the thread, as I was surprised too to see the Ciaz weigh only as heavy as my Fabia. |
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![]() | #21 | |||
Team-BHP Support ![]() ![]() | ![]() Quote:
However, I do notice that you assume the Indian city to be just as safe as the Thai city's ASEAN city ratings? Reality check - the Thailand spec SV version tested weighs 1102 kgs for the manual version. The India spec SV version weighs 1065kgs for almost similar kit, while the VX version which has much more kit than the Thai version including sunroof weighs only 1085 kgs. Any idea why the Thai spec version (that had to be crash tested) is almost 37 kgs heavier when Honda focuses so much on efficiency and light weight strength? The Polo on the other hand doesn't feel compromised in build. The one thats tested in Europe weighs 1157 kgs compared to our version with 1156kgs. Quote:
![]() What about ride quality, straight line stability, handling? Are they comparable as well? Quote:
FYI - Swift ZDi weighs 1080kgs, while Polo 1.6 GT TDi weighs 1156kgs. Thats 76 kgs not discounting the fact that its a 1.6L engine under the hood. Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 28th September 2014 at 20:31. | |||
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![]() | #22 |
BHPian ![]() Join Date: May 2006 Location: mumbai
Posts: 612
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| ![]() Can the mods have a poll for the preference team-bhpians have for light weight body vs Higher weight due to thicker sheetmetal. My preference would be for the thicker sheetmetal, although not overdesigned. |
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![]() | #23 | |
BHPian ![]() Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: KL
Posts: 924
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Just to clear another mis-concept, German cars are not considered vault because of their thick metal body. It's the driving dynamics, the feel of being sure footed and planted, and the grip levels at seriously high speeds that make them feel like a tank. | |
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![]() | #24 | |
Senior - BHPian ![]() Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: SG
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At the expense of repeating myself, it is naive to look at the crash test results of international variants with the ones being sold in India. The high ratings most of the cars recieve is due to the presence on front and curtain airbags and various other safety features. Many times these features are not available on India specific models which except for the topmost variants may not have 6 airbags too. Which means they will be at best 4 stars that too hoping that structurally these models are identical to the ones sold outside. Let us have testing of india specific variants and that too of all variants instead of only the top most ones before we conclude on the safety of india specific models. Till then I personally would prefer to feel reassured with the european thud. | |
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![]() | #25 |
Senior - BHPian ![]() | ![]() A heavier car, automatically feels more planted at Speed. That Planted feeling cannot be measured in 0-100 terms. However, although anything even suggestively related to street-racing is a sacrilege on team-bhp, on the real road, what matters is the ability to sustain, maintain a high speed comfortably. Thats where the vehicle with better high speed behaviour (and also brakes) have a definite advantage. Besides this, a peaky engine, could be both a boon as well as a bane, depending on the driver, especially due to the need for frequent downshifts and if one does not do it right, the slower, more planted car stays ahead, despite the 0-100 disadvantage. |
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![]() | #26 |
BHPian Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Bangalore
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| ![]() From reading the opening thread and subsequent posts, it appears the crux of the arguments is that if Japanese / Korean cars can produce the same NCAP ratings as their European counterpart, then why do European cars make a big deal of the European's sheet metal thickness? However this presumes that sheet metal thickness is solely for the purpose of safety. But that presumption is incorrect. Sheet metal thickness provides for greater rigidity and body durability. That (along with laser seam welding for the top) provides for keeping the car shell in the same shape for a longer time to come. I have seen the older Honda Citys outer body flexed at various places with age. Our family's 21 month Ertiga suffers from many minor scars showing its age even though nothing of significance has hit the car's sheet metal yet; a minor nudge from a two-wheeler and the wrinkle shows. On the other hand I see the old Octavias on the road and their body seems to be as good in shape as if it were a recent purchase. You can make their age from the fading of the headlamp; dust accumulated in various crevices, the baldness of the tyres and of course from the model, but never from their sheet metal. To conclude sheet metal may or may not be a big deal for NCAP safety but it helps to keep the car the same from outside for a longer time. Cheers, Last edited by diffsoft : 28th September 2014 at 22:00. |
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![]() | #27 | ||||
BHPian ![]() Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: kochi
Posts: 468
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![]() | #28 | |
BHPian ![]() Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Arkansas,US
Posts: 280
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Those who wants to have the "Best Power to Weight Ratio" and "fuel economy to beat a 'Prius'", may find these factors useless. But for those who wants to have a safer means of transport from A to B, this means a LOT!!! And I could see a lot of people considering the NCAP ratings as the BENCHMARK of safety. What I believe is no such ratings can make a car safest. If so, why do they revise the safety targets every year..ever though about that?? Those environments under test are ABSOLUTELY PRE-DEFINED and accidents on road hardly resembles those testing environments. Attaching a few pictures which would help you understand this. Wondering whether a 'Roll over rating' would actually help this? Do we really have a NCAP testing for these?? I strongly believe that a better 'Sheet Metal thickness' will help in these cases. Last edited by shineshine : 28th September 2014 at 22:26. | |
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![]() | #29 |
BHPian ![]() Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Bhubaneswar
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| ![]() No car would sustain if a tree falls on it. Even the so called tough cars of the olden days such as the Amby and Padmini took quite a beating in case of trees falling on them. But I agree to the fact that those cars aged quite gracefully as the body didn't get deformed in case of leaning onto it, a bicycle hit, a dog hit, and even while cleaning. Modern cars, specially <5L ones have their bodies corrugated within a year due to flimsy construction and ultra thin sheet metal. Altos and WagonRs are proof of this. |
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![]() | #30 | |||
Team-BHP Support ![]() ![]() | ![]() Quote:
Which is my point as well. You just cannot assume that the Indian city is built to the same safety standards as the ASEAN versions, thanks to the big difference in weight between the two. Whereas you can assume the Indian Polo is almost identical thanks to near identical specs. As I have made it clear from the first post itself, I wouldnt call the City 'dangerous', specially for high speed collisions. For me, personally its a big feel-good factor and a big protection against small accidents that can happen in the city. As for the figures - you can compare yourself here, but be prepared to decipher a bit of Thai. ![]() Thailand SV CVT - 1099 kgs. (Small correction of 3 kgs from my earlier post. Apologies) SV+ CVT - 1102 kgs. (Has optional 6 airbags). India SV CVT - 1065 kgs. VX CVT - 1085 kgs. (Has sunroof) http://www.honda.co.th/en/city https://www.hondacarindia.com/allnew...fications.html Quote:
My point is - every car has its own advantages. If the Europeans become like Japanese cars, whats the use in having different flavour of cars in the market? Anyone who wants lightweight, efficient and nippy cars can pick from the lot of Japanese cars, and those who would prefer 'perceived' build quality can prefer the Europeans. Quote:
![]() Lets hope the Swift 90 hits the market soon, not to replace the Europeans - but to add an additional flavour. We all could only benefit from increased competition. Last edited by CrAzY dRiVeR : 28th September 2014 at 23:34. | |||
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