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Old 21st October 2019, 11:33   #16
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Default Re: All about speeding, speed limits, and reasons & methods for setting speed limits

I have always felt speed limit setting in India is a tickbox exercise with it being next to impossible (even dangerous) to stick to the speed limit as per sign boards.

The abrupt reduction to a 30 km/hr, zones without explicit speed limits wherein 'self-regulated' speeds are followed suiting one's own logic and convenience, all make it an invitation to being rear ended if speed limits are followed to a T

Personally I am in favour of sticking to (any) speed limit if no one else exceeds it and pose a hazard to me
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Old 21st October 2019, 14:11   #17
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Default Re: All about speeding, speed limits, and reasons & methods for setting speed limits

Good thread. Interested to see the mode of discussion this brings to the members. Interesting to see no on from Bangalore (heaven of traffic jams) still in discussion. We in Bangalore are left with no roads to drive. My regular commute to office turned to be off-road adventure. All thanks to corporation. I generally move at average speed of 15 KM and takes 90+min to cover 20 km of home to work commute.
My view on speed, we in India have no infrastructure to go beyond 100 kmph, but still I have seen people zooming at 150+ on highways. Most of drivers in India are not even drivers, they just know how to change gear, give direction to the front wheel, and press gas pedal to accelerate. what to expect when you can get license of any category by paying few thousand rupees to a agent. I know many people who cannot even drive, proudly display their LMV driving license.
Most people who migrated from two wheeler to a car because of buying power they just drive like a 2 wheeler with 4 wheels attached. And because you don't feel speed like on two wheeler, they never realize their actual speed and keep going till limit.
I wish, govt scraps all existing driving license and call for fresh, demonatization for DLs in India
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Old 21st October 2019, 16:31   #18
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Default Re: All about speeding, speed limits, and reasons & methods for setting speed limits

I don't understand the 85th percentile speed limit concept. Considering everyone is driving closer to the strictly enforced speed limits, how do they actually calculate the 85th percentile speed? Wouldn't it be the same always thanks to the speed limits? Or do they delimit that section for the period of the test? All this is considering cars and tyres have vastly improved from the 70s and 80s.

While I completely agree that braking distances exponentially increase with increase in speed (thanks to the laws of physics) how do they manage to reduce road accidents in Germany? Is it their attitude to obey all the laws perfectly which gives them this advantage?
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Old 21st October 2019, 22:01   #19
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Default Re: All about speeding, speed limits, and reasons & methods for setting speed limits

I do not believe that speed is the problem, speed is certainly blamed and is a contributing factor however that is not all there is to it.

Lets look at Bangalore, Kaveri theatre road snakes around the underpass and then you deal with Mekhri circle and there we have a clean stretch till Hebbal - floor it. Now this lasts till you reach Hebbal where the road gets divided into many bits that go under over and over and above with a bus stop thrown in the middle - bottle neck is what they have created, speeds reduce rather abruptly here.

Get down from this fly over into the outer ring road which is relatively free of traffic, again most people floor it here until they reach a curve where conveniently there is a bus stop without any parking provisions and also a bunch of rumbler strips. Speeds come down very drastically here too, once an Indica (rather the idiot driving it) crashed into the rear end of my vehicle as well although I was parked with Handbrake on due to a traffic Jam a bit ahead on this curve.

The point i`m trying to make is, with broad high speed roads, we need to gradually bring the speeds down to make it safer.
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Old 21st October 2019, 22:39   #20
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Default Re: All about speeding, speed limits, and reasons & methods for setting speed limits

There are reasons why speeds around the world have not increased beyond 120 kmph and they probably won't exceed this until we have fully autonomous cars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
but given the erratic driving pattern and poor driver training of our commercial HTV drivers, and generally poor maintenance of our buses and trucks, it would not be a good idea to permit high speeds such as 100 kmph for trucks & buses that the government & NHAI propose.
USA has proved that DSL is not necessary. Although some states have implemented some version of it- California has 55 mph for all vehicles which are towing.

I'm not a fan of it as it impedes flow on Indian highways. You can't have vehicles which do 1/3 rd or 1/2 your speed on the same highways- 2, 3 and 6+ wheelers. I understand that fuel is expensive and no one is going to 100 kmph on a truck, but we should have a minimum speed of 80 kmph on level road for trucks.

Last edited by landcruiser123 : 21st October 2019 at 22:42.
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Old 21st October 2019, 22:59   #21
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Default Re: All about speeding, speed limits, and reasons & methods for setting speed limits

What a fantastic thread Sir. Read through the entire thing in one go.Very detailed information which is definitely an eye opener.

In Kolkata, the Maa flyover has a general speed limit of 60 kmph which is reduced to 30 kmph (or 40, don't exactly remember) just before the bend towards Park Circus while going from EM Bypass. This is definitely done after taking into consideration the safe speed at which that sharp right can be taken.

Thanks once again for this 5* rated thread.

Warm regards,

Siddhartha
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Old 21st October 2019, 23:15   #22
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Default Re: All about speeding, speed limits, and reasons & methods for setting speed limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackPearl View Post
Excellent thread SS da with exceptional details. Went through all of it at one go. Rated 5 stars.
Thank you BP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLK View Post
People from Delhi would see the recent trend in installing speed cameras almost everywhere, there are 100s now. So in Delhi, unless you are absolutely sure, there is no camera on a particular stretch of road or your car is registered in another state or your number plate is deliberately kept dirty, you can't over-speed!
You're seriously suggesting methods to beat the system and intentionally drive dangerously?
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If an accident happens, they reduce speed limits and add speed breakers (e.g. Dwarka flyover, DND) in a knee jerk reaction.
Of all the methods of speed management, the speed breaker is the one that is the worst - apart from speed control on private roads with speed limits of 20 kmph, they have no role to play. Someone among India's traffic management experts needs to wake up and realise this.
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Traffic cops enforce speed limits in the least risky spots where the average traffic speed is more than the set limit i.e. 8 lane barricaded roads within city, coming down the flyover ramp etc.
It's called entrapment, but the only way one can avoid this is to be able to control one's speed at all times, whether going level or down a ramp.


Quote:
...now with automatic cameras, setting the right limits is all the more important, as it has essentially become a mass harassment in the name of safety.
So enforcement of speed limits (howsoever inappropriate these limits may be) is harassment? As long as the number of casualties and fatalities reduce significantly, I shall be glad that such a form of harassment exists.
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Speed limit is... overrated to be considered the only thing affecting safe driving.
Around the world, speed limiting is considered to be the number one road safety measure.
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The other thing that is very important that the primary purpose of vehicles on road was to travel and if speed limits become a hurdle and encourage people for driving at very low speeds, it is a cause of traffic congestion as the capacity of roads decrease by more than 15% if you decrease the limits from 60 to 50.
Wrong. A 10-15% drop in speed limit translates to a difference in travel time in urban areas of only 5% or less. A crash leads to road blockage and delays that would be worse than just the paltry 5%.
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(many would relate this is similar to corporate laptops which actually are loaded with so may scans and security software that they are almost a waste for the purpose they existed! work!).
Very appropriate analogy, I think. I haven't ever used such a laptop, but I believe one would lose one's job if one were to tamper with the security software and try to make the laptop work faster. Similarly, disobeying speed limits = losing one's driving license - that would be quite fair.
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Also, on most critical roads, minimum speed limits should also be displayed, while it is very difficult to enforce, it would educate many who drive too slow even on empty stretches.
Seriously? Where in the world do they enforce minimum speed? Just overtake them and carry on...
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As far as statistics go, in a country where we can't even take a count of how many rapes are actually reported, accidents due to over-speeding is in most cases is a figment of imagination of the bystanders.
Wow... that's not correct at all!
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Also, what the statistics don't tell if the fatal accidents actually happened when someone was doing 100/150+ kmph in city limits rather than 55kmph.
Casualties at 55 kmph, yes. Fatalities, unlikely.
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While I agree that between 90 and 100 and 110 the risk of fatal accidents increase, the change in risk on a 6-8 lane road between 50 and 65 is insignificant (if you know Delhi roads).
65 kmph on the Dwarka flyover is dangerous. The curves are not designed to handle much more than 40-45 kmph, especially for tall SUVs and goods carriers. Blame it on bad road design, but the narrow stretch is not fit for even 50 kmph. Yes, I do know Delhi roads.
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As for me, I comply with speed limits, almost always and now-a-days, I see my 180 bhp car being the slowest thing on the road. I drive through the Delhi ring-road everyday and with a speed-limit of 50kmph, somehow I'm the slowest and even buses overtake me.
Glad to know that. Slowest on the road is not necessarily the last to arrive at destination.
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With less than 50% cars on the road which have local Delhi numbers or good clean number-plates...
Even non-DL registered vehicles are getting challans issued through Vahan.
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...speed cameras and their dedicated steel pillars are being put at an insanely fast pace. So much so that, unless speedlimits are rationally put-up, it is getting choking to drive for rules obeying people (all the time watching the rear of the car!)
Rationalization is expected to happen, but the question is, how scientifically? There is tremendous pressure on the police as well as MoRTH to raise the speed limits on various roads, but the only thing holding them back is the rising incidence of fatalities. Cases in point: The YEW was to bring down the speed limit from 100 to 90 kmph, but it didn't happen. The MPEW had its 120 limit curtailed to 90 kmph, then subsequently raised to 120 again, on public demand. Now it's back to 80 kmph due to the rising crash rate.
Quote:
Another question, do people really know how fast are they going? at least as per this thread https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...driving-3.html (How often do you check the instrument cluster/MID while driving?) at least 15% of team-bhp members don't, leave alone many others who are not enthusiasts and drive by instincts.
Yes, it's a major problem. Many goods carriers and buses do not even have functional speedometers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by adi.mariner View Post
Excellent thread SS Sir. Rated a well deserved 5 stars.
Thank you Adi.
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The Mumbai Pune Expressway speed limit was increased to 120 kmph and now again has been reduced back to the original 80 kmph. Some ghat sections have 30 kmph as the limit mentioned which is practically impossible and very few vehicles follow that.
Remember, the lower speed limits in India are designated for the most unstable vehicle - think Omni, Eeco, Tata Ace, etc.
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Originally Posted by dealer View Post
Thanks for a such a detailed explanation on speeding and its effects on road safety in the country.
Thank you, dealer.
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While i follow the speed limit judiciously, i always have this thought at the back of my mind that how does one enjoy a good performance/handling machine without speeding?
One doesn't take a high performance machine to its speed/rev limiter to enjoy it. One simply enjoys the acceleration it has from 0-100 kmph! Otherwise, one needs to take it to a race track. Delhi folks can visit the Buddh International Circuit, but I wouldn't know much about other cities.
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As pointed out by other members of the forum, speed limits of 30-40 kmph are often imposed on various mountain roads and at those speeds i would argue that most cars would be indistinguishable in terms of performance or handling. How does one justify buying a high performance machine with such limits imposed?
Tried driving an Eeco on a mountain road? How fast can you go without your heart climbing into your mouth? That's who the limits are set for. You don't want a loaded Tata Ace coming the other way around a curve at 60 kmph just because you, in your quest for a road with higher speed limit where you can enjoy your high performance car, decided the speed limit should be 60 kmph for all.

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Originally Posted by J4J View Post
Wonderful thread backed with data. Felt as if I was reading a research paper.
Thank you J4J. Speed limits have been an area of interest for me for a long time.
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We get stuck at certain choke points en-route which wastes a lot of time. I have seen personal vehicle/government bus drivers get irritated because of this. In the end, drivers try to overcome the lost time by the only available option they have i.e.. speeding.
Choke points and highway congestion are gradually reducing year by year, and travel times have indeed come down significantly. I've done drives between Delhi and Kolkata (1500 km) over 60 hours, which can predictably and safely be done now in 24 hours.
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When a bus/car driver is given such a compliment, people don't realize that they are encouraging over speeding indirectly.
Yes, and those are times many of them end up dead.
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Originally Posted by Samba View Post
Great initiative and a very informative thread. Gained a lot of knowledge on how things work. Rated 5*.
Thank you Samba.
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In places i have seen the normal speed limit mentioned on NH is 80, then suddenly you will see a board with speed limit mentioned as 40 and policemen standing with a speed gun just after that! Do they want the motorists to brake that hard and come down from 80 to 40?
Yes, that's entrapment. But there's no law against it. But then again, there's no law against using speed gun detecting equipment in India either. What would you choose? I'd just go slow. Imagine there's a speed bump just ahead of where the sign board is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeTee TSI View Post
I have always felt speed limit setting in India is a tickbox exercise with it being next to impossible (even dangerous) to stick to the speed limit as per sign boards.
The authorities used to put up speed bumps at vulnerable sections of the road. Now they put up a speed limit sign, and sometimes sit around with a speed gun to catch errant driver.
Quote:
The abrupt reduction to a 30 km/hr, zones without explicit speed limits wherein 'self-regulated' speeds are followed suiting one's own logic and convenience, all make it an invitation to being rear ended if speed limits are followed to a T
Would anyone have preferred a super-sized bump instead, that took away the exhaust system and punctured the fuel tank when one forgot to slow down to a crawl over it?
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Personally I am in favour of sticking to (any) speed limit if no one else exceeds it and pose a hazard to me
The speed cams all over are trying to make sure no one does exceed the speed limit. But we don't like to follow rules.
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Originally Posted by driveup View Post
Good thread.
Thank you, driveup.
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My view on speed, we in India have no infrastructure to go beyond 100 kmph, but still I have seen people zooming at 150+ on highways. Most of drivers in India are not even drivers, they just know how to change gear, give direction to the front wheel, and press gas pedal to accelerate. what to expect when you can get license of any category by paying few thousand rupees to a agent. I know many people who cannot even drive, proudly display their LMV driving license.
Most people who migrated from two wheeler to a car because of buying power they just drive like a 2 wheeler with 4 wheels attached. And because you don't feel speed like on two wheeler, they never realize their actual speed and keep going till limit.
I wish, govt scraps all existing driving license and call for fresh, demonatization for DLs in India
How I wish the same too! But the process of testing prior to issuing the DL won't change soon, even though we now have automated driving test systems in Delhi, such as the video below:

There has never been a driving test in India, which tested the driver's ability to control his vehicle at the speed limit, and stay in the correct lane. All driving tests that anyone in this country has ever undergone, have only tested his ability to drive below 20-30 kmph. Can anyone expect such people to deftly control a 1-50 tonne piece of metal at 100 kmph?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbohead View Post
I don't understand the 85th percentile speed limit concept. Considering everyone is driving closer to the strictly enforced speed limits, how do they actually calculate the 85th percentile speed? Wouldn't it be the same always thanks to the speed limits? Or do they delimit that section for the period of the test? All this is considering cars and tyres have vastly improved from the 70s and 80s.
Yes, those sections are delimited at that time.
Quote:
While I completely agree that braking distances exponentially increase with increase in speed (thanks to the laws of physics) how do they manage to reduce road accidents in Germany? Is it their attitude to obey all the laws perfectly which gives them this advantage?
Germany in general has very strictly enforced speed limits, especially in urban areas. If you are talking of the Autobahns, those have speed limits too. Watch this:

Then again, someone needs to describe how tough or easy it is to get a driving license in Germany.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 02:53   #23
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Default Re: All about speeding, speed limits, and reasons & methods for setting speed limits

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
You're seriously suggesting methods to beat the system and intentionally drive dangerously?
Am I really suggesting that? I merely made a statement about how strict is it in Delhi now. I see its your thread and you are a 'safe driving trainer!' as per your signature, your tone is conflicted and biased.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
So enforcement of speed limits (howsoever inappropriate these limits may be) is harassment? As long as the number of casualties and fatalities reduce significantly, I shall be glad that such a form of harassment exists.
Isn't it? harassment? setting a speed limit which is way below the average traffic speed on that stretch and then enforce it with heavy fines and cancelling licenses.

A law isn't above the notion of right or wrong. Someone unqualified made a law, doesn't make it right. Again your thread, but you are suggesting you support inappropriate speed limits and the attached fines because they will bring down the number of casualties. You don't think the word 'inappropriate' has any relevance in this sentence? Let me explain, inappropriate means they are set way too low to have a serious effect on road safety. Helps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Around the world, speed limiting is considered to be the number one road safety measure.
The 'World' has much higher limits than those in India. The World's speed limits are in a range that matter more for safety. In India, there are other reasons for road deaths and speed 'Limits' are not the one, excessively high speeding often is, but nowhere close to the set limit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Wrong. A 10-15% drop in speed limit translates to a difference in travel time in urban areas of only 5% or less. A crash leads to road blockage and delays that would be worse than just the paltry 5%.
I just said something about statistics, don't apply them blindly, they apply to less cases than to the ones they don't. I don't want to get into what goes into this to prove you wrong, but a 50kmph on a 6 lane traffic light free ring road vs a 60kmph makes a considerable difference to travel time. I can quote multiple such stretches in Delhi, which have slowed down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Very appropriate analogy, I think. I haven't ever used such a laptop, but I believe one would lose one's job if one were to tamper with the security software and try to make the laptop work faster. Similarly, disobeying speed limits = losing one's driving license - that would be quite fair.
I see you are all about road safety, but no one is suggesting breaking anything, what are you really trying to prove? My point is limited to setting more thoughtful speed limits, to not become a hindrance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
disobeying speed limits = losing one's driving license - that would be quite fair.
That is a bit extreme. I understand your propaganda but its still a democracy unfortunately and deciding punishments is not in your hands for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Seriously? Where in the world do they enforce minimum speed? Just overtake them and carry on...
Where in the 'world'? you could have known with a 2 sec google search, but it is a point of view, which is apparently not so uncommon where needed. And I merely asked for education and smooth traffic movement even if it is less enforced, because there are many in our country who drive like hurdles on the road.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Wow... that's not correct at all!
Since you have researched so well on setting speed limits maybe some light on how are these statistics drawn in India would be helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
65 kmph on the Dwarka flyover is dangerous. The curves are not designed to handle much more than 40-45 kmph, especially for tall SUVs and goods carriers. Blame it on bad road design, but the narrow stretch is not fit for even 50 kmph. Yes, I do know Delhi roads.
If you know the flyover, then you would know there are speed-breakers which you can't cross at the stated speed limit too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Slowest on the road is not necessarily the last to arrive at destination.
It actually is but I'm in no hurry, unless we are in that rabbit and tortoise tale, but doesn't bother me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
The YEW was to bring down the speed limit from 100 to 90 kmph, but it didn't happen.
That is the point, you are confusing speed limits with over-speeding. YEW accidents are due to excessive overspeeding and enforcement is needed to curb that and not reduce speed limits. If overspeeding could be curbed the vehicles traveling within speed limits would be safe too. You are actually implying that since some people are driving at 150+kmph, the speed limit for others should be reduced to be safe.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 08:50   #24
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Default Re: All about speeding, speed limits, and reasons & methods for setting speed limits

The risks of overspeeding are definitely real and I'm sure that except for the uneducated few, most drivers are wary of the risks. The only aspect that I would want to see in having speed limits is a bit of common sense and logic. MPEW at 80 kmph is a torture when the volvos and new gen heavy vehicles approach your rear bumper at 120+. At least, have some sensible limits that apply to all; say, 100 kmph. Reasonable enough to incentivise travellers to not exceed the limit. And then, there are boards for speeds at 30 kmph when most vehicles do more than 100 there.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 12:35   #25
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Default Re: All about speeding, speed limits, and reasons & methods for setting speed limits

This is an interesting topic. And some time ago, I have had the opportunity to waste my company't time by thinking of a better solution to this problem, rather than the one they wanted me to spend my day on.

Science is clear, it is not the speed that gets you, it is the weight. Because if it was speed, we would be dead the moement we saw the light of the day. Photons are incredibly light, and travel incredibly fast, and don't cause any damage whatsoever.

So, my solution to this man-made dilemma is to have speed limits based on the gross weight of the vehicle. The heavier the vehicle the slower you need to be. Have a 2 tonne luxury SUV, drive it at 40. Have a bantom weight Lotus Elise, go ahead hit 160 kph. This works well. Because the guy in a Merc GLS wants everyone to know of his success at capitalism, while the one in an Elise wants to exit the curve faster than he entered it, creature comforts be damned.

So it is a win-win. People wanting to spend money on fast cars, better spend it on light weight ones, while those wanting to get luxury badged wagons, can show them off.

This clearly won't work for bikes and I accept the limitation to my genius. But bikes anyways are lighter than the rear leaf-spring arrangement of grandpa era SUV that is a faourite of punjabi-rap loving off-roaders in NCR. And bikes rarely cause damage to anyone other than the silly rider who refuses to inflict upon him the pleasures of a car, mostly for reason related to Economics. In which case it is fair, because a rider very well knows what will be the consequence of emulating their favourite yellow-leathered racer on a public road - most probaly broken bones that even Dr. Costa can't sort. So bikes can have a speed limit of around 500 kph, that wil be not only fair, but will also be fine with Darwinian School of Gene Pool Enhancement, which everyone should agree is the best finishing school known to man.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 12:39   #26
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Default Re: All about speeding, speed limits, and reasons & methods for setting speed limits

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Originally Posted by SLK View Post
That is a bit extreme. I understand your propaganda but its still a democracy unfortunately and deciding punishments is not in your hands for now.
I certainly feel queasy to wade into an argument with someone so bellicose...but I object your honor! A democracy doesn't automatically devolve into a mobocracy. Germany is a democractic republic. The US is a democracy. They both still have extreme laws and road/highway safety rules. In Germany you get the sense that it is a privilege, not your right, to get a driving license.

In the US, it is probably easier to get a license when compared to Germany, but the US market is the pastmaster of record sharing and making karma bite back at bad drivers - offences and accidents affect your wallet, career and life like nowhere else on earth. And all this is assuming you get away from roving highway patrols and cop cars when overspeeding.

So to rest my case - I object to the notion that a democracy is somehow a mobocracy in disguise where anyone can do as they please without consequences. What you're describing is a banana republic, a veritable jungle where a Tarzan with the highest decibel of yoodeling gets to swing the farthest/fastest on a vine.

Do note, I have singled out that one sentence of yours. I certainly couldn't make out what your post's point was, when looking at its entirety.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 15:43   #27
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Default Re: All about speeding, speed limits, and reasons & methods for setting speed limits

I have a very basic question for which I would be obliged if one of the experts could throw some light.

What IS the speed limit I am expected to follow ?

The Apr 2018 circular from the Central Government, which SS-Traveller has mentioned in his initial posts states 70 KMPH inside City Limits, 100 KMPH on dual carraigeways and 120 KMPH on Expressways for cars. However State Governments are free to fix lower limits as he has observed.

So what are these limits in each state ? In my home city of Bangalore, I cannot find the notification of what the limits are. General "consensus" is that the limit is 60 kmph, unless lower limits are signposted. Is that right ? We cannot easily find what the limits are in other states (Wikipedia mentions for example that there are no limits notified in Maharashtra !).

So, would it be right to follow the lowest of the following three, inside city limits ?

- What is signposted (if such signposts exist at all)
- The State Limit (Eg 60 kmph in Karnataka)
- The Central Limit (70 kmph )

Outside city limits, on highways it would be the least of

- What is signposted
- State limits if they exist (what are they ?)
- Central Limit (70 kmph on single carraigeway and 100 kmph on dual carraigeway)

If anybody has a definitive state wise limit, that would be immensely useful, especially to those of us who love interstate travel.

Now, any BHPian who wisecracks that all this is irrelevant in Bangalore where the top speed possible is 3 kmph will be clobbered
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Old 22nd October 2019, 15:55   #28
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Default Re: All about speeding, speed limits, and reasons & methods for setting speed limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosfactor View Post
I do not believe that speed is the problem, speed is certainly blamed and is a contributing factor however that is not all there is to it.
The point i`m trying to make is, with broad high speed roads, we need to gradually bring the speeds down to make it safer.
True. Speed + erratic zigzag driving without following lanes makes the situation worse in India.
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Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post
There are reasons why speeds around the world have not increased beyond 120 kmph and they probably won't exceed this until we have fully autonomous cars.
Indeed. Reaction times for a human are much worse than what an autonomous car can achieve.
Quote:
USA has proved that DSL is not necessary. Although some states have implemented some version of it- California has 55 mph for all vehicles which are towing.
The DSL has to do with manoeuvrability of a vehicle. Yet, in Australia, road trains with 3 trailers zoom at 110 kmph on the highways - but the lane discipline they follow is remarkable.
Quote:
...we should have a minimum speed of 80 kmph on level road for trucks.
The 40 kmph rule for heavy vehicles and 50 kmph rule for two-wheelers in India is an archaic one, which hasn't been reviewed in the last few decades. The authorities certainly need to make this more rational.
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Originally Posted by siddarthab View Post
What a fantastic thread Sir. Read through the entire thing in one go.Very detailed information which is definitely an eye opener.
Thank you, Siddhartha.
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In Kolkata, the Maa flyover has a general speed limit of 60 kmph which is reduced to 30 kmph (or 40, don't exactly remember) just before the bend towards Park Circus while going from EM Bypass. This is definitely done after taking into consideration the safe speed at which that sharp right can be taken.
A very important case study, this Maa flyover. The curves are badly designed, and when first opened, the accident and fatality rate was stupendous. With lower speed limits and speedcams leading to stricter enforcement, the crash rate has definitely improved.

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Originally Posted by SLK View Post
I see its your thread and you are a 'safe driving trainer!' as per your signature, your tone is conflicted and biased.
No need to get personal.
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Isn't it? harassment? setting a speed limit which is way below the average traffic speed on that stretch and then enforce it with heavy fines and cancelling licenses.
A speed limit's purpose is to set the average traffic speed which is considered safe for that road. There should be no reason why a road should have higher average traffic speeds than the notified limit.
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A law isn't above the notion of right or wrong. Someone unqualified made a law, doesn't make it right.
Unfortunately, there are hundreds of archaic laws in this country, and not just related to the Motor Vehicles Act. Most are not even remembered, but when some are rigidly enforced, the citizen has no choice but to follow them. We can protest, but we can't break the rules.
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...you support inappropriate speed limits and the attached fines because they will bring down the number of casualties. You don't think the word 'inappropriate' has any relevance in this sentence? Let me explain, inappropriate means they are set way too low to have a serious effect on road safety. Helps?
The definition of speeding also includes inappropriate speed (driving too fast for the conditions, but within the limits). So, for example, on the MPEW, 120 kmph may be appropriate for a dry sunny day, but 80 kmph may be too much for a rainy night. Most drivers do not take this into account, and insist on moving at the speed limit irrespective of conditions. Therefore, crash rates rise, and the authorities in all their wisdom declare 80 kmph as the speed limit for all times.
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The 'World' has much higher limits than those in India.
...and many a time there are lower limits than in India. School zones at 30 kmph, or parking lots at 15 kmph, for example.
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In India, there are other reasons for road deaths and speed 'Limits' are not the one, excessively high speeding often is, but nowhere close to the set limit.
What does this mean? Breaking speed limits causes road deaths?
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...50kmph on a 6 lane traffic light free ring road vs a 60kmph makes a considerable difference to travel time. I can quote multiple such stretches in Delhi, which have slowed down.
In all areas in Delhi, the traffic police don't really send out a challan for doing 52 in a 50 zone. They allow an 8-10 kmph excess speed, before issuing notices. Punjab & Haryana Police OTOH are stricter, and there have been reports of challans being issued even with 2 kmph over the limit.
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I see you are all about road safety, but no one is suggesting breaking anything, what are you really trying to prove?...
I understand your propaganda but its still a democracy unfortunately and deciding punishments is not in your hands for now.
There you go with personal attacks again. Nothing to prove, no propaganda - the whole point of this thread was to provide an overview of speed management worldwide, and a mild criticism of the scenario in India, where the government is trying hard to focus on road safety under international pressure, but is probably not doing a very good job of it.
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You are actually implying that since some people are driving at 150+kmph, the speed limit for others should be reduced to be safe.
Nothing of the kind. The tendency for drivers is to drive a few km over the speed limit, and not stick to it. So the perception among the authorities is that, if the speed limit is 120 kmph, more folks would drive at 150 kmph. If the speed limit is 80 kmph, they would then speed up to maybe 100 or 110 kmph, which is safer than 150 kmph.
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Originally Posted by roadrunner_nv View Post
MPEW at 80 kmph is a torture when the volvos and new gen heavy vehicles approach your rear bumper at 120+. At least, have some sensible limits that apply to all; say, 100 kmph.
Wow... and these Volvos are not penalized?
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...there are boards for speeds at 30 kmph when most vehicles do more than 100 there.
The concept of advisory speed limits (square yellow board) does not exist in India, unfortunately. The board just asks motorists to slow down for their own safety, but exceeding this limit does not mean a penalty will be imposed.
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Originally Posted by forty6 View Post
This is an interesting topic.
Thank you, forty6.
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Science is clear, it is not the speed that gets you, it is the weight.
Actually it's the massive deceleration that a human body is incapable of surviving. At 160 kmph, whether in a Lotus or a bus, an impact and sudden deceleration is what kills. A sudden deceleration from 50 kmph is far less likely to kill.
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...bikes rarely cause damage to anyone other than the silly rider
And that one life is equally important, and governments do not encourage suicidal behaviour. Hence the need for helmets.
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Originally Posted by locusjag View Post
In Germany you get the sense that it is a privilege, not your right, to get a driving license.
True. One needs to earn one's driving licence (not buy it) in the countries where road safety is a major concern.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 18:14   #29
SLK
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Default Re: All about speeding, speed limits, and reasons & methods for setting speed limits

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Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
No need to get personal.
.
.
There you go with personal attacks again. Nothing to prove, no propaganda - the whole point of this thread was to provide an overview of speed management worldwide, and a mild criticism of the scenario in India, where the government is trying hard to focus on road safety under international pressure, but is probably not doing a very good job of it.
I'm sorry if you felt so. I read a striking bias in your responses and called that out (of course you would know better if I misread). I don't think we are on different sides, only that my criticism of the scenario in India is not mild.

Again apologies if you felt offended.

I think that the law makers need to rationalise the law first, if they want compliance (no I'm not saying break law, but are they able to enforce the 50kmph now?). If they are waiting for people to first comply and then they will think about rationalising, then that's the reason for their failure so far.

When people have habit of breaking laws in mass numbers, most people don't differentiate between breaking it by 10kmph or 50kmph, and speed limits lose relevance, therefore, we need rational limits and strict enforcement then. My only point.

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Originally Posted by locusjag View Post
Do note, I have singled out that one sentence of yours. I certainly couldn't make out what your post's point was, when looking at its entirety.
In the interest of your understanding, my point was:
1) Speed limits are irrationally low for certain stretches of roads
2) Enforcement at these points is akin to extortion, because the law makers are the ones who are enforcing (conflict of interest!).
3) My single sentence was only a response to a statement that licenses should be cancelled for over-speeding. With the irrational speed limits, I think the fines are enough of an unfair treatment, and cancellation will be an extreme punishment. You are free to disagree. The countries you quoted don't have licence cancellation on over-speeding, but only if you are caught with an extreme violation, like 50%+kmph over the speed limit (I don't remember the exact rule(s)).

Hope that helps.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 20:13   #30
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Default Re: All about speeding, speed limits, and reasons & methods for setting speed limits

Often unpainted, unmarked speed breakers on the roads. Even highways.
Highways passing right through villages and populated areas, instead of having arterial roads connect to highways.
Shops/vendors of all kinds right on the edge of the roads without absolutely zero buffer zones. And commuters who halt right in the middle of the left lane to patronise them.

Surely all these also must be contributing to the accident rates? Do our road planners even factor them in while setting limits?
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