[Takumi-san]

ANCAP did this specifically as a media stunt. The Scorpio was setup to fail at zero stars even before the test. I am calling it as waste of taxpayers money and have already written to my local MP (paying tax down under for the past 15 years). Lets not be so quick to pooh-pooh our Indian manufacturers who are doing an extremely good job. Fantastic read for anyone who truly wants to understand why -
https://www.carexpert.com.au/opinion...omes-to-safety

[padmrajravi]

Originally Posted by Takumi-san

ANCAP did this specifically as a media stunt. The Scorpio was setup to fail at zero stars even before the test. I am calling it as waste of taxpayers money and have already written to my local MP (paying tax down under for the past 15 years). Lets not be so quick to pooh-pooh our Indian manufacturers who are doing an extremely good job. Fantastic read for anyone who truly wants to understand why -
https://www.carexpert.com.au/opinion...omes-to-safety

Thank you for this. So Scorpio was penalized for causing more damage than expected to the moving barrier. And the lack of ADAS gave it a zero star by default anyway. These two points just nullifies all the hype around that zero crash test rating.

Pedestrians and safety of people in other cars are defenitely important, but my family's safety is slightly more important to me than other people. So it is sensible to choose a zero star with better occupant safety than another one with five stars because it just managed to tick all boxes needed for ANCAP's idealistic criteria.

That said, Mahindra needs to think beyond India crash tests now. They are on the verge of going truly global and the internal crash tests now need to accomodate these idealistic rules. But for us, there is no reason blame them for this rating. It clearly looks like a publicity stunt.

[shancz]

Originally Posted by Takumi-san

Fantastic read for anyone who truly wants to understand why -
https://www.carexpert.com.au/opinion...omes-to-safety

Thanks for this link, some details are quite astounding.

Originally Posted by shancz

how safe the is vehicle to occupants of other vehicle and I quote from the report:
[/i]

That's a frontal offset crash test with a Mobile Progressive Deformable Barrier.
This uses a 1400kg low height barrier to simulate a family car(looks like a sedan's front by height). High riding vehicles like SUVs have a disadvantage on this test unless explicitly designed and then they're typically heavier than 1400kgs too which will increase the energy transferred to the barrier to the detriment of the heavier vehicle's ratings. Not sure how they can get around this though.

The very few tests I have read up to this point show the depth they've gone too but honestly some seem a bit too much prima facie. I don't have the patience or inclination to read though the ANCAP and Euro-NCAP protocols and their reasoning behind each so will leave it at that.

[Aritra]

At-least what's good is that the body structure of the vehicle is deemed to be safe. Major reasons why Scorpio lost out seems to be the lack of Autonomous Driving Technology (ADAS), Seat-belt pretensioners / load limiters for rear and Pedestrian Safety. It will not be tough to integrate the ADAS from XUV700 and upgrade the seat belts in the Scorpio for M&M which would then significantly boost it's score.

[careind]

Originally Posted by Takumi-san

ANCAP did this specifically as a media stunt. The Scorpio was setup to fail at zero stars even before the test. I am calling it as waste of taxpayers money and have already written to my local MP (paying tax down under for the past 15 years). Lets not be so quick to pooh-pooh our Indian manufacturers who are doing an extremely good job. Fantastic read for anyone who truly wants to understand why -
https://www.carexpert.com.au/opinion...omes-to-safety

Thanks for this article which was eye opening in many ways. That section about ANCAP penalizing full 8 points ( or 20%) because the Scorpio damaged the 1400 kg moving barrier is actually the selling point, at least in countries like India. So I guess we can safely assume ANCAP may not be applicable to Indian conditions and we should not project ANCAP results onto Indian market.

It is interesting that the test assumes that most of the cars in real road conditions are just moving blocks of 1400 Kgs with none of the ANCAP 'n' star worthiness in place.
If that assumption is true, then ANCAP should actually encourage people to buy more Safer cars. And if the assumption is false, then again, the test conditions do not in any way portray real life scenarios and creates a serious flaw. Sort of a heads I win tails you loose situation.

It would be understandably difficult for any externally funded Organization to stay impartial over a longer period of time as businesses would find creative ways to workaround resistance in the longer run, and these organizations are dependent on those very businesses to give them business.

Does any of these **CAP organizations put the money where the mouth is and collect empirical evidence from real life scenarios on how the star rated cars fared in real life crashes? It would definitely make a very interesting read.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

But then, I suppose these aids are meant for the largest cross section of drivers with the least number of driving skills.

No they are meant for an even larger cross section of mostly males, that believe they are hot shot drivers and everybody else sucks at it.

Jeroen

[Carma2017]

It is great to see and read the opinion of our Forum members about NCAP testing. It really gives a very good picture of what our Indian public thinks as the forum members here are a cross section of the same.

1. One thing is clear to me personally. Most People do not understand what NCAP is, NCAP rating meaning, how it operates, what is the relationship between various variants of NCAP tests etc. Hence, most of the conclusion drawn is erroneous in above posts with various conspiracy angles and tax payers' money wastage etc coming up. I did not see such conspiracy theories when same Suzuki vehicles were repeatedly tested by NCAP to peddle a point. I think even the last batch of GNCAP tests have yet again picked up vehicles already tested. It is this gap in understanding that Fear Mongering agencies like GNCAP exploit thoroughly.

2. Our understanding of vehicle structure stability and safety is equally compromised because of above. Even today, a lot of people link dents in outer panel with Crash safety. The Indian government, via BNCAP, as whole heartedly embraced the concept of NCAP. Hence, we should be ready that by 2026 or 2027, similar norms as in Australia will be applicable in India as well.

3. Active Safety is the future and it is unfortunately an area where we are truly third world because of the need for Road Infrastructure to be compatible with Active Safety Aids including road signs and markings etc.

[jalex77]

I see a lot of folks feeling like pedestrian and other road users' safety doesn't matter and it's their's and their family's safety that's more important and what matters.

Well, I'd like to let remind them that like everyone else's, their kids too often need to cross the road when going to and back from school, that we all are pedestrians at some point of time, and that we are vulnerable road users at those times. And personally, I value the life of someone else's child or family as I value mine.

Then, many of us do ride cycles and two wheelers atleast occasionally don't we? Which again makes us vulnerable road users at that point of time too.

One's not always inside an iron cage and will definitely have to get out of it while travelling as well. Like for instance to get to the final destination point from the parking lot or parked area.

We all are vulnerable road users in all the above mentioned circumstances and at the mercy of the vehicle coming recklessly or negligently towards us or our family. That is why the vulnerable road users test scores matters and is given due weightage in these tests.

[ron178]

Originally Posted by Carma2017

I think even the last batch of GNCAP tests have yet again picked up vehicles already tested.

Do you have evidence supporting this? Already in 2022 they spent their full 1-million-Euro FIA grant testing and retesting Suzukis and Suzukis only.

It seems like for their last round they have done other never-seen-before models like the Mahindra Bolero Neo and as for retests a lot of evidence points to the updated Carens being tested at Kia’s expense. But retesting more Suzukis would be almost comical at this point. Do your sources point to any particular models?

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by Takumi-san

ANCAP did this specifically as a media stunt. The Scorpio was setup to fail at zero stars even before the test. I am calling it as waste of taxpayers money and have already written to my local MP (paying tax down under for the past 15 years). Lets not be so quick to pooh-pooh our Indian manufacturers who are doing an extremely good job. Fantastic read for anyone who truly wants to understand why -
https://www.carexpert.com.au/opinion...omes-to-safety

Does the ANCAP need to change and improve? Sure, agreed. This has been debated for long and here's an article from 2021 that raises the criticism with ANCAP itself, https://www.whichcar.com.au/features...relevance-2021

Let's come to the Mahindra Scorpio and XUV 700's timeline in Australia.

April 2023
Mahindra is able to launch the Scorpio without AEB since it was approved for sale in November-2022. Basically Mahindra thinks they are smart to have escaped from implementing the Australian Design Rule 98/00 – Advanced Emergency Braking for Passenger Vehicles and Light Goods Vehicles.





Carexpert's verdict on the Scorpio
"Given this lack of critical active safety features, I can’t wholeheartedly recommend the Scorpio for family buyers."



June 2023
Carexpert's verdict on the XUV700


November 2023
Carexpert's posts another review on the Scorpio.


Mahindra invites Australian Journos to their R&D and Proving Facility near Chennai.


December 2023
Carexpert's take on the Zero Star ANCAP rating for the Scorpio


Make what you will of the above sequence of events but here's my view on this.

• Carexpert (CE) is one of the well regarded automotive outlets and I'm not casting any doubts on their credibility. The founders created Caradvice (now known as DRIVE) earlier which had a great reputation.
• Clearly CE themselves pointed out the lack of critical safety equipment in the Scorpio and the lack of ANCAP rating for the XUV700. We may disagree on the methods of ANCAP but the ANCAP rating matters to the public.
  • There's no Euro NCAP rating for the Scorpio.
  • Do they expect Australians to take the GNCAP rating at face value? No.
  • Why waste money on testing? So we get to see gems like the below,
  • 
  • 
  • I myself have posted in threads that question the Airbags deployment issue in Mahindra vehicles. Without any objective evidence our discussions were pure speculation and I said it was unfair towards Mahindra. However, when I see a Mahindra with its seatbelt unbuckling during a crash test, it is painting a rather sad picture.
• Mahindra needs to get its act together with global launches. Reputation is everything. Why rush the Scorpio launch in Australia without AEB and end up tarnishing its brand image? Why rush the launch of the Thar in the USA and get sued?
• I think the ANCAP wanted to teach Mahindra and others a lesson by making this ANCAP Zero Star a PR exercise to dissuade them from trying the trick Mahindra did to skip AEB. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
• Having said all of the above, I don't know why people are shocked. The Scorpio scored 5 Stars in the GNCAP and 0 Stars in the ANCAP. Two different markets with different regulations, requirements and expectations. Isn't this true across industries?
  • If someone bought a Scorpio in India because it has a GNCAP 5 Star rating then, well that is a fact and the ANCAP rating doesn't change that.
  • The typical Scorpio in India with bullbars, auxiliary lights and political flag poles will anyways kill or maim the average pedestrian in the event of a crash.
  • People are still using words like, "Tank" and "auto-rickshaw" in this thread. So why even bother discussing ANCAP when all that matters is, "My car had a dent and the auto-rickshaw was crushed. I win."
• I think, Mahindra is punching above its weight in moving safety forward in India but the game is a couple of decades ahead overseas and they have to tread carefully.

[volkman10]

Safety upgrades coming to MG 5 sedan after zero-star crash-test rating.

The budget-priced MG 5 sedan from China will receive upgrades to its crash structure and crash-avoidance technology after it was hit with a zero-star safety rating last week.

Chinese car maker MG will fast-track structural upgrades and new crash-avoidance technology to the MG 5 sedan after it earned the lowest safety rating awarded to a new car in Australia.

The MG 5 last week became the third vehicle to receive a zero-star safety rating from ANCAP – beside the Mahindra Scorpio 4WD, announced at the same time, and the Mitsubishi Express van tested in 2021.

Now MG has announced a series of safety changes designed to improve the MG 5's crash-test performance for occupants – as well as pedestrians – due to roll out sometime next year.

Link:

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by kiku007

[*]The typical Scorpio in India with bullbars, auxiliary lights and political flag poles will anyways kill or maim the average pedestrian in the event of a crash.[*]People are still using words like, "Tank" and "auto-rickshaw" in this thread. So why even bother discussing ANCAP when all that matters is, "My car had a dent and the auto-rickshaw was crushed. I win."[/list][*]I think, Mahindra is punching above its weight in moving safety forward in India but the game is a couple of decades ahead overseas and they have to tread carefully.[/list]

In India at the present moment, the vast majority can’t afford and don’t have cars. The first base to reach is ‘mobility’ and this is largely achieved by commuter two wheelers and tractors and trucks and buses and shared auto rickshaws and everything in between. And those vehicles in the larger aspect do not conform much to various regulations such as proper number plates, working lights, brakes, tyres, helmets, emission norms, seat belts and other safety aids. To top it off most of them are over loaded.

Safety per se is slowly assuming importance, in people’s consciousness. First of course is the safety of their own families and all external road users are secondary.

Many of the supposedly ‘safety-conscious’ and ‘well off’ people who are driving their 4 or 5 Star safety-rated vehicles, allow their youngsters to stand on the passenger seats and stick their heads out from the sun roofs. So the application of common sense and logic is also very poor.

We don’t yet have much of a ‘public conscience’. Right now we are all too busy in the pursuit of Nirvana for the Self, and hence we do not generally think and act for the Greater Good of the Greater Number.

Might, therefore, is Right; just as you have pointed out in your analogy of the auto rickshaw vs car in your post. One of the reasons why big ‘Butch looking’ SUV’s sell like hot cakes here.

Saying all of the above, it will definitely be better if Mahindra and Tata and Suzuki and Toyota and others engineer their vehicles ground up to meet all International Safety Norms.

Let us also keep in mind that Hyundai and Kia and Skoda and VW and all are ‘engineering vehicles to a ‘price’ for the India markets’ and these vehicles most probably, will not pass the same stringent Euro NCAP and ANCAP standards.

[antz.bin]

Mahindra knew what the laws of the land were. They tried to duck the law by making it within the deadline to avoid providing AED and other ADAS features on the Scorpio by choice. Nobody forced them to do that. It is not enough to say that it *would have* fared better in the last iteration of the test. If they wanted the previous version of the test, they should have had it crash tested under the old protocol by themselves, proactively, in advance. Tata motors was smart enough to do that in India with Global NCAP with their sub-4 meter cars before the new test that required 6-Airbags became mandatory.

Mahindra knew what the result would be if ANCAP crash tested their car under the new test specifications. Everyone knew it. Still they took the risk chose to launch it in its current form in Australia.

What has happened is their own doing. They have lost face and reputation due to their own actions. They themselves have to take action to now fix it or live with this black mark on their reputation till this is fixed. And it is still possible to fix it. Just take the effort and get the non-zero ANCAP rating.

ANCAP did the right thing by making examples out of MG and Mahindra and made sure that no other manufacturer will try this stunt again in the future. This is eventually in best interest of the Australian consumer in the long term. Now that ANCAP took the effort and did the test, something good must have come out of it (eg. seat belt unbuckling episode unearthing). Mahindra can take the feedback and fix what went wrong and get the final product better engineered to pass this test. This exercise should make the ScorpioN a better product for everyone (including us Indians), not just the folks in Australia.

[Comrade]

I am not sure why car enthusiasts like BHPians are just glancing at the dumbed down 5-point rating instead of the full ANCAP report.

There are clearly two things ANCAP is looking at. How the car performs in an actual crash as well as whether the car tries to avoid a crash. While the first test is a qualitative one, I get the impression (from carexpert article) that the second test is just a quantitative one (pass/fail based on if equipment is present or not).

After comparing GNCAP & ANCAP, I atleast am confident that Scorpio-N is a 5-star car in an actual crash! While I do care about electronic nannies like AEB that can help avoid a crash, those ratings should get a seperate score and not confuse the buyers!

Further, just like testing seat belts, airbags & crumples zones, these NCAPs should device methods to actually test the effectiveness of the active safety features like AEB & LDW etc instead of rating a car on whether the feature is installed or not!

[The Rationalist]

Why are we getting upset at other countries regulations! Every manufacturer has to comply to rules of the country they plan to sell to right? That applies even for individual jobs, just because I’m doctor who has right to license in India doesn’t make me a good doctor in a different country. Nobody is forcing Mahindra to sell in Australia. If they scored 0, well it is their fault, nothing to do with ANCAP. Lot of food produce in India would never be allowed to be sold in Western countries, even in Middle East, but we Indians hog that. Our rules are lax, why pick out other countries for our problems?

If Mahindra is serious about Australian markets or any other developed country, they better pull their socks and implement changes. It will ultimately be beneficial for their future. Do you think BNCAP criteria will remain the same for ever? No, right. As we carry on the momentum towards a developed nation, our regulations will become stricter, but that doesn’t mean we should expect other developed nations to wait for that time. It is not as if there are no 5* ANCAP rated cars, that means it is possible to achieve, it’s Mahindra’s headache, we don’t have to defend them just because they are Indian. Are we willing to accept the standards of a sub saharan African country for ourselves? If not, we have no right to pick on ANCAP.