[sharmanova]

The Bharat New Car Assessment Programme (BNCAP) has awarded the Citroen Basalt a 4 star for both adult and child safety. The crash test result is applicable for all variants.

The car which was crash tested had the following safety features:

- 6 airbags
- Front seat load limiter
- ISOFIX child seats
- Electronic stability control (ESC)
- Seat belt reminder for all seats

https://youtu.be/Ax_mSn6E6WU?feature=shared

[ron178]

It is interesting, if the dummy readings and modifier application for this test are to be trusted, this is a 4-star GNCAP car too but it's not as straightforward as you would think.

(+) In BNCAP, the Basalt is less than 1 point shy of a 5-star rating. With GNCAP it would get 1 or 2 more points for seatbelt reminders and cross over to the 5-star zone (27+ pts).

(-) BUT BNCAP does not take away a star for >5.6 difference in front and side scores if the frontal score is above 8.2 points, GNCAP does. So the Basalt would go back down to 4 stars.


I am a little miffed with BNCAP being so mechanical and not providing insightful comments about whether the colours are caused by dummy readings or modifiers. My hunch is that the passenger compartment has become unstable but it is not that straightforward if it is a typical European triple-loadpath design (I don't know if it is). That said the combination of yellow feet, orange chest and disqualification from kneemapping are 99% an indicator that structural penalties have been applied.

[saikishor]

Car scoring 4 stars is fine, but what is BNCAP upto? I mean, releasing results of mostly irrelevant cars? GNCAP used to mostly test popular models which would somehow prove to be useful for a buyer. What good does it do in testing a somewhat irrelevant car? Maybe some marketing prowess.

Wake up BNCAP, there are several other cars which the consumers are waiting for to be tested. Wish there was a mandatory testing kind of a thing for every model before it is launched.

Edit: I see this is applicable only for select models. This is not how it should be done. In that case, either test only the base model or test both base model and top model. This will give a clearer perspective. Testing only top model, releasing its results and then putting a small highlight of "applicable for select models only" is very misleading.

Edit: The fact sheet shows the models that this rating is applicable to, and I am assuming it has all variants over there. Why create so much confusion for a simple thing

Edit: Where can I find the bodyshell integrity? The stable/unstable comment?

[ron178]

Originally Posted by saikishor

Car scoring 4 stars is fine, but what is BNCAP upto? I mean, releasing results of mostly irrelevant cars?

GNCAP's secretary general seems to think, according to the interview below, that Maruti are making six airbags standard on their new generation of models in India (maybe Maruti are waiting until that for BNCAP?). He has also mentioned the new Swift in two interviews this year which makes me think GNCAP might be testing it as well.

Watch this interview at 13:10 with translated subtitles: Are cars sold in Chile safe? - Interview with Alejandro Furas, from Latin NCAP

Originally Posted by saikishor

Edit: I see this is applicable only for select models. This is not how it should be done. In that case, either test only the base model or test both base model and top model. This will give a clearer perspective. Testing only top model, releasing its results and then putting a small highlight of "applicable for select models only" is very misleading.

Edit: The fact sheet shows the models that this rating is applicable to, and I am assuming it has all variants over there. Why create so much confusion for a simple thing

I would like to disagree here as IMO BNCAP does this better than GNCAP, who do exactly the same thing but don't even mention that the rating is for select variants only.

Eg. if the Scorpio N had no ESC or side airbags across the range, like the base variant, the entire model would have scored 2 stars, but the whole model (even the base variant *officially*) has 5 stars because ESC is a standalone option and curtain airbags are fitted to >30% units of Scorpio-N produced overall. This means a rating for a variant can be hugely dependent on safety equipment that is not even fitted to it.

GNCAP's reasoning is that it encourages manufacturers to design their cars to have these features but requiring them standard would have made them give up on 5 stars. But it is a little exasperating that a consumer testing programme thinks its audience is the industry and not consumers. It is a common problem with NCAPs over time where after seeing their work drive progress they tend to cut out the middleman (the consumer) but as long as they recognise the hazards and make an active effort to patch it, it works. GNCAP do not appear to be.

BNCAP as we know copy-pasted GNCAP's protocols and now are in a half-hearted attempt to patch this. While it is nice they are at least bothering to mention that it is valid only for a few variants, that means that when base variants differ from the top the base will almost never carry a valid rating. As you mentioned it would have been much simpler to have a dual rating system like Euro NCAP.

Originally Posted by saikishor

Edit: Where can I find the bodyshell integrity? The stable/unstable comment?

It seems press releases and comments are not BNCAP's forte. This is very bad as moving backwards to calculate the dummy values from the colours is hard enough as it is when the modifiers are known — without comments it is highly nondeterministic.

[tbppjpr]

4 star for a car with such badly distorted A pillar. Looks like bad start for Bharat NCAP, does not seem to be a agency worth trusting for something crucial as car safety. Gncap also lost trust after rewarding 5 star to 'unstable' Verna.

"News is what somebody somewhere wants to suppress; all the rest is advertising" - Lord Northcliffe

These crash test agencies are turning into the marketing agencies of secondary safety features which rely on electronics instead of ensuring the most important aspects of the safety is kept in check which is bodyshell of a vehicle.

Now its clear that the Bharat NCAP is a result of car manufacturers lobby in India who want to keep selling the dumped and rejected garbage to Indians who do not have any value of their life for them.

First they made laws to snatch our cars prematurely, now this. Unfortunately we don't have anything in this country to protect the interests of public, especially the car owners.

Abraham Lincoin once said - "Democracy is a government of the people, by the people and for the people". This is not applicable in our country, it seems to be aristocracy.

Disappointed.

[vamsi.vadrevu]

How have they released the ratings of a car tested in August, but haven't released results of cars tested and released long ago? Also where are the comments on body structure integrity? It seems bncap is compromised and probably taking kick backs from manufacturers to control when the results are published.

We'd seen Nissan Magnite facelift in the bncap images a while ago. And those results aren't out yet. So I'm guessing they'll release them once Nissan pays them something? Or at an opportune time as stipulated by manufacturer.

Can't really put any trust on these ratings anymore. Perhaps euro ncap and asean ncap are the only ones that are a little transparent.

[ron178]

Originally Posted by vamsi.vadrevu

We'd seen Nissan Magnite facelift in the bncap images a while ago. And those results aren't out yet. So I'm guessing they'll release them once Nissan pays them something? Or at an opportune time as stipulated by manufacturer.

It was an internal Nissan development test commissioned at the ARAI facility on an export-spec LHD car and nothing to do with BNCAP. Source.

Originally Posted by vamsi.vadrevu

Can't really put any trust on these ratings anymore. Perhaps euro ncap and asean ncap are the only ones that are a little transparent.

Former MIROS director-general charged with falsifying documents in the procurement of crash test vehicles | Paul Tan’s Automotive News

[lemedico]

Is it just me, who finds it more confusing to actually make sense of the star ratings nowadays?
As a car buyer, I need to correlate the number of stars awarded to the capability of the car (read physical strength) to keep me and my fellow occupants safe if and when we crash.
Why does it matter to me if the pedestrian I accidentally knock, is less hurt due to the passive features available for them. Or the lack of, therefore knocking a few points off the score and thus a star? At the end, it still may be a strong car for me as the owner and therefore the stars should notify me of that!

There are far too many criteria now, and I believe euro ncap would award zero stars to the battle tank we all know as Mercedes Benz W201, because it doesn't have gizmos and it's radars, whilst being an incredibly safe car to be within!

Major clarifications and clarities are needed from these guardians of the testing protocols

[kronos596]

@ron178 does Basalt come with Seat Belt Pretensioners ? Kinda surprised with driver/front pasenger protection in Orange color. If I recall correctly, e-C3 could have managed atleast 3 stars if it had electronic safety aids and seat belt pretensioners.

To @Citroen India, good job and please continue to improve your products and service based on market feedback. Hope to see more Basalts on the roads soon.

[SuperGirl_Dad]

Originally Posted by lemedico

Why does it matter to me if the pedestrian I accidentally knock, is less hurt due to the passive features available for them. Or the lack of, therefore knocking a few points off the score and thus a star? At the end, it still may be a strong car for me as the owner and therefore the stars should notify me of that!

Maybe that's the difference needed for the person you "accidentally" knock down to live to see the light for another day and also for the Enforcement authorities to "not" slap manslaughter charges .

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by lemedico

Why does it matter to me if the pedestrian I accidentally knock, is less hurt due to the passive features available for them.

You or your family members don’t walk right?

I always advise my drivers and others I travel with (when not driving) to be cautious of pedestrians and smaller vehicles. Unfortunately, most drivers will either push cyclists or two-wheelers off the road or honk aggressively to ask way (depending on the situation), and none of them own a car.

How anyone changes so fast, is beyond me.

[Doge]

Originally Posted by lemedico

Is it just me, who finds it more confusing to actually make sense of the star ratings nowadays?
As a car buyer, I need to correlate the number of stars awarded to the capability of the car (read physical strength) to keep me and my fellow occupants safe if and when we crash.
Why does it matter to me if the pedestrian I accidentally knock, is less hurt due to the passive features available for them. Or the lack of, therefore knocking a few points off the score and thus a star? At the end, it still may be a strong car for me as the owner and therefore the stars should notify me of that!

There are far too many criteria now, and I believe euro ncap would award zero stars to the battle tank we all know as Mercedes Benz W201, because it doesn't have gizmos and it's radars, whilst being an incredibly safe car to be within!

Major clarifications and clarities are needed from these guardians of the testing protocols

What would you say to trucks running without a crash bar? If I was a truck driver, I know that a if a normal car or suv you and others may drive can rear end me at a good speed and probably nothing much would happen to me. Sure, occupants of the car would likely die, but I'm fine, why should I get crash bars installed?
It's a rating for safety for human beings, including inside and outside. The difference between a slow speed impact with a pedestrian in an old merc and a modern honda could be that the pedestrian is paralyzed for life vs gets up with a few bruises.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by lemedico

Why does it matter to me if the pedestrian I accidentally knock, is less hurt due to the passive features available for them.

You make an excellent point, but it is overshadowed by how you put it across in provocative/triggering language.

Pedestrian safety indeed sticks out as the "odd man out" because rest of the sub-sections of a car safety test -

- Frontal impact
- Side impact
- Rollover impact
- Rear impact (whipsaw injury)
- Child safety
- ADAS

are all about car occupants safety.

If crash testing agencies want to encourage safer cars for pedestrians, they can give a separate rating. But they should not be adding or docking points from overall crash safety rating.

[ron178]

I am not even sure how this thread went on to discuss pedestrian safety as BNCAP does not even consider it for practical purposes. They only need AIS 100 type approval which all Indian cars have had since October 2019 anyway.

In GNCAP/BNCAP the “other” safety features are qualifiers but rarely add points. A car that is 2-star because of crash protection is not going to get any more by adding other safety features.

NCAPs do go beyond what happens in the test, but what happens in the test is the first thing they use in scoring. In the Verna and Basalt tests dummy readings showed low to limited risk of serious injury and even structural measurements were low. In this particular crash scenario, at least based on the kinds of injuries assessed, it is quite likely that you would be able to walk away.

Not the case with the “stable” e-C3 and Alto K10 which actually had high enough structural measurements lower down to indicate moderate to high risks of serious injury to at least non critical body parts (maybe survivable but likely crippling), if not even dummy readings indicating high risk of serious rib fracture (e-C3).

That is why the penalty for instability is much smaller than that for outright structural intrusion. I could do a whole other post on evidence that NCAPs do not consider a permanently bent A-pillar as sufficient for instability.

[sapien]

I am really happy with the direction in which Citroen is progressing in India, this 4 star rating should act like shot in the arm for them. That too its timed well, right before festive season.

Since some changes have been made to the C3 Aircross and C3 as well, all 3 being on same platform- should hopefully translate to 4 star safety for C3 and Aircross too.

As a next step in brand building, relaunch a fully loaded, 5 star rated, properly localized, well priced C5 AIRCROSS like SUV competing XUV700, TUCSON, SAFARI, COMPASS. All the Creta/Seltos owners are likely to upgrade in that segment.

Not to forget, ensure top notch service experience!