[stanjohn123]

I got curious suddenly about the road accident fatalities between India and Australia as I frequently hear news about accidents in Australia and how they are deeply worried about their citizens' deaths and the stronger measures they take each time to ensure their citizens' safety.

Once I started researching, I was shell shocked at the stark difference in attitude of both people and the government in both countries.

India's latest accidental report was for the year 2022, so we will be comparing the reports of both countries from this year.

As per MORTH's report, the total number of deaths for the year 2022 was 1,68,000. But both WHO and IIT Delhi have said that this report is useless and deaths are vastly underreported. The explanation they have given actually makes sense. When developed countries like the US, Australia and Japan collate their accidental data from 4 sources like hospitals, ambulance services, forensic investigation of crash sites and insurance providers, India solely relies on its one source which is our infamous Police Department.

So IIT Delhi believes that the death count could actually be underreported by at least 50%.

So the real death count should be 2,52,737.

https://www.indiaspend.com/data-gaps...-deaths-781261

2,52,737 roughly translates to 1,504 deaths every 2 days. Comparatively, Australia sees only 1,194 deaths for the entire year of 2022. In the year of 2023, their deaths slightly increased to 1,266. India does not have data for 2023 yet.

An argument that some people might put forward is that India's population is in Billions while that of Australia is in Millions. So the higher death count in India is justified. Well, not quite and I'll explain why.

In 2022 at 1.41 billion population, India was only 54 times higher than that of Australia's population, which was at 26 Million whereas, the road deaths were 211 times higher than that of Australia's.



Reason's for Higher Road Fatalities in India :

1) We are still a very poor country with high income inequality.

2) 47% of vehicles on our roads are motorbikes. This stat actually does not paint the correct picture, as it is 47% of total households own a bike. But on the road, there definitely are more bike users than car users, especially in cities. I think the figure is around 70%.

3) Very poor road conditions with lack of safety signs and signals.

4) Extreme corruption which affects administration and road quality.

5) Lack of strict punishments, nor heavy fines.

6) Easy license issuance to public.

Reason's for Lower Road Fatalities in Australia :

1) Rich country, almost equal distribution of wealth.

2) Almost 99% of cars on road and very few bikes.

3) Excellent road infrastructure, road signs and warnings every few meters.

4) Strict License Issuance, it takes 4 years to get a full driver's license here. That's the same as getting an Engineering degree in India. They have 4 classes, Learners ( L ), Provisional ( P1 & P2 ) and Finally full driver's license ( C or HR )

5) Frequent surprise checks on road for Driving under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

6) Very harsh punishment for Overspeeding and drunk driving.

7) No partiality between rich and poor.

What's really worrisome for India, is the attitude of the govt and people compared to that of Australia's. Here we have so many road deaths but the govt still doesn't have a plan or willingness to control it. Nithin Gadkari himself said they may not be able to achieve their earlier target of reducing road deaths by half.

https://auto.hindustantimes.com/auto...371690249.html

What's worse, he now blames the people for not having road manners or discipline while driving. I thought it was the government's job to get people in line.



Whereas if we see the Australian side, the Albanese government have set their vision 0 in place, which is having 0 deaths and serious injuries by 2050.

Australia have one of the lowest death rates on the road and yet they are not satisfied with it. Whereas, in India, we have our road deaths vastly underreported, even then it is pretty high and the government isn't taking any initiative to fix it.

I have no idea why our citizens are not holding the government to task despite paying so much in road tax.

I have attached a video of me riding in Sydney and you can see how good their infrastructure is and how disciplined their motorists are. We are at least 200 years behind Australia in terms of Infrastructure and safety laws. When are we going to fix it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujBdv_n8lfg&t=329s

[BraveArc]

I feel the high fatality rates are down to three main reasons.

Firstly, I don't think it is as simple as just population comparison. The higher density of road users in India makes it statistically higher for a fatal accident to happen.

Secondly, the mentality of road users needs to change. As a nation, we are always in a hurry whereas in Australia, people are a lot more relaxed and not rushing to go from A to B which makes it a lot safer. If we could flick a switch and 99% of road users followed the rules(especially stopping for signals), pretty sure number of accidents would also reduce by 99%.

Finally, our infrastructure is not great and even when improvements are made, by the time it is in play, it is outdated as we are progressing too fast. The police can be bribed and people get away, the method they use to enforce rules itself causes accidents at times.

Plus, in most countries, vehicles can be registered for only one year and the registration has to be renewed every year at a government center where unpaid fines, etc will cause the registration to not be renewed whereas here people don't have to renew anything for a long time allowing them to not have to worry as much. But, implementing this is very difficult as impounding vehicles doesn't happen and police don't exactly patrol the streets with number plate recognition systems.

P.S. If you are still living in Sydney, check out the Sydney meet-up thread. A few of us meet up quite often.

[stanjohn123]

Originally Posted by BraveArc

I feel the high fatality rates are down to three main reasons.
Firstly, I don't think it is as simple as just population comparison. The higher density of road users in India makes it statistically higher for a fatal accident to happen.

That is a fundamental problem created by our short sighted leaders. They always focus development in cities , as a result , majority of the population are squeezed into these cities.

The road planning is also awful. If you look at Adelaide , some of their roads were built 100-150 years ago but it still holds today massive traffic in CBD with only small adjustments needed to be made over the years. Their buildings are all standing in the same position as it was 150 years ago.

Originally Posted by BraveArc

Secondly, the mentality of road users needs to change. As a nation, we are always in a hurry whereas in Australia, people are a lot more relaxed and not rushing to go from A to B which makes it a lot safer. If we could flick a switch and 99% of road users followed the rules(especially stopping for signals), pretty sure number of accidents would also reduce by 99%.

This problem can easily be solved by introducing the same 4 years license issuance as they have in Australia.

Originally Posted by BraveArc

Finally, our infrastructure is not great and even when improvements are made, by the time it is in play, it is outdated as we are progressing too fast. The police can be bribed and people get away, the method they use to enforce rules itself causes accidents at times. Plus, in most countries, vehicles can be registered for only one year and the registration has to be renewed every year at a government center where unpaid fines, etc will cause the registration to not be renewed whereas here people don't have to renew anything for a long time allowing them to not have to worry as much. But, implementing this is very difficult as impounding vehicles doesn't happen and police don't exactly patrol the streets with number plate recognition systems.

Corruption generally is a big issue for India. I am not sure how they will solve it.

Originally Posted by BraveArc

P.S. If you are still living in Sydney, check out the Sydney meet-up thread. A few of us meet up quite often.

Yeah cool. Would love to meet you guys one day.

[SmartCat]

This article gives data on road fatalities per 100,000 population for each country:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate

[stanjohn123]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

This article gives data on road fatalities per 100,000 population for each country:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ted_death_rate

Attachment 2697773

There are some issues with this report,

1) It's based on an old 2019 report

2) 0 credibility, as it's Wikipedia ( Anyone can manipulate the numbers here )

3) It does not address the main issue of under reporting traffic deaths, in all 3rd world countries including India.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by stanjohn123

2) 0 credibility, as it's Wikipedia ( Anyone can manipulate the numbers here )

The source of wikipedia data is this WHO page:
https://apps.who.int/gho/data/view.main.51310?lang=en
(opens .csv file)

If you have doubts about any article on wikipedia, just follow the references which is at the bottom of each wiki page. Every important statement in a wikipedia article is hyperlinked to the reference/authoritative source.

[stanjohn123]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

The source of wikipedia data is this WHO page:
https://apps.who.int/gho/data/view.main.51310?lang=en
(opens .csv file)

If you have doubts about any article on wikipedia, just follow the references which is at the bottom of each wiki page. Every important statement in a wikipedia article is hyperlinked to the reference/authoritative source.

Alright but the data is still wrong. Because WHO summarizes the data given to them from the Indian government. WHO's own website at the bottom states that , India's data is unavailable or unusable due to quality issues and cannot be used for policy evaluation or comparison by countries.

https://data.who.int/countries/356

[nandrive]

I completely agree with Gakariji's statement. Some of the newly built highways in India are better than Aussie motorways still I see people driving in opposite directions, no sense of lane discipline. It's just the people attitude and no fear of law.

I see the same attitude with many of desi Aussies as well, but only things they fear is heafty fine and demerit points. If you don't agree with me, I can name few suburbs in Sydney, you can witness yourself.

[stanjohn123]

Originally Posted by nandrive

I completely agree with Gakariji's statement. Some of the newly built highways in India are better than Aussie motorways still I see people driving in opposite directions, no sense of lane discipline. It's just the people attitude and no fear of law.

I see the same attitude with many of desi Aussies as well, but only things they fear is heafty fine and demerit points. If you don't agree with me, I can name few suburbs in Sydney, you can witness yourself.

Why can't India also follow the same hefty fines and demerit system ? Why can't we introduce a 4 level license issuance in Digital India as is followed by Australia ?

Only if you bring such reforms will people obey the rules and laws.

[V.Narayan]

The OP makes some good points about our data being incomplete as it depends only on police filings. I buy that. We all understand that India probably has the highest actual road fatality numbers in the world . And we all know the multiple reasons for that starting with gross driving indiscipline to police apathy to bad road design to congested roads to untrained drivers and so on and on. A better place for this argument to start would have been - 'why is India the road fatality capital of the world' . Starting the discussion with a 'Australia so good, India sucks' sets the discussion down the wrong path given that in terms of both traffic size and infrastructure and public attitude {and callousness} the two nations are poles apart, simply poles apart.

If a comparison is to be drawn China might be a better case to compare with {Spoiler alert - we are tied for the Gold medal more or less}. With China it is likely that their figures are 'off' like ours!

Traffic discipline in Australia is very good by any standards. India is way down the list and we all know that. A comparison is futile unless the objective is to heap scorn. Heaping scorn, no matter how well deserved, does not help a rational debate.

Getting us up the curve is a gargantuan multi-factor exercise which needs 2 generations at the least. And the solution is not in changing the training and attitudes of the 236 million drivers but some jump in technology which by passes the driver altogether. For example for decades we grappled with a shamefully corrupt and inefficient public distribution system for food grains and essentials. Every one benefited but the poor. Digitization and direct to beneficiary transfer did the trick by eliminating the need for any public distribution. Similarly the solution for our driving and traffic issues lies in technology that changes the way things are done and eliminates the driver and the constable.

[nandrive]

Originally Posted by stanjohn123

Only if you bring such reforms will people obey the rules and laws.

I guess you don't follow Indian news, India tried the reform, but people were against the reform, here are few pointers for your reference

truck-drivers-protest-against-new-provisition-under-hit-and-run

gujarat-rolls-back-some-penalties-for-traffic-offences-2-wheelers-to-pay-less

The state government’s relaxations come against the backdrop of growing public anger against the heavy fines, exacerbated by police and transport department officials going on an overdrive.

For example, there are reports that a trucker from Rajasthan had been fined nearly Rs 1.5 lakh in national capital Delhi for a string of traffic violations. In Odisha, public anger had spilled over to the state last week during a drive against violators. People vandalised a police van and detained several police vehicles which they had complained, had not been stopped by the police despite violating the law.

Union transport Minister Nitin Gadkari has refused to review the fines, insisting that people had to learn to respect the law in the country where 5 lakh road accidents take place and 1.5 people lose their lives annually

Not only above mentioned state, almost all the states reduced penalties for political reasons. I don't blame the politicians, it's due to public anger they were forced to do it.

Everywhere it happens, if you don't know , check this nsw-labor-coalition-announce-demerit-cuts-fine-waiver-schemes-to-woo-safe-drivers
Even Australian roads will be less safer in future.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by nandrive

I completely agree with Gakariji's statement. Some of the newly built highways in India are better than Aussie motorways still I see people driving in opposite directions, no sense of lane discipline. It's just the people attitude and no fear of law.

I am sorry but in what way are some of these so called highways better than Australia? Do they have a scientifically designed merge lanes for every entry and scientifically designed exits? Do they have proper signage including max speed signs every 500m to 1 km? Do they have proper drainage and a gentle slope to push the rain water out? Do they incorporate gentle curves as is the design standard across all developed countries as opposed to arrow straight highways in India? Do they have certified crash safety barriers throughout and who sets those standards and what are those standards? I can go on and on but there isnt one highway that I have seen (including some of the much vaunted one's) which incorporate all of the standards of a freeway build in Australia or any other developed country for that matter.

Here is a guide to road design in Australia. Please show me the same for India and if we have it, why are roads so drastically different within the same city let alone cities and states across India.

https://austroads.gov.au/safety-and-...to-road-design

[nandrive]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

I am sorry but in what way are some of these so called highways better than Australia? Do they have a scientifically designed merge lanes for every entry and scientifically designed exits? Do they have proper signage including max speed signs every 500m to 1 km? Do they have proper drainage and a gentle slope to push the rain water out?

I just drove from Bangalore to Shimog, the highway is under construction, but the completed stretch of roads are top notch compared to Motorway from Sydney to Brisbane(M1). The carriage ways are wider than M1, road surface was better, has far less steep curves. All the bridges have emergency lanes unlike M1 https://maps.app.goo.gl/bjJkoXK8r85mtmUF9

Look I am not here to bash one country over the other, I love both the countries equally. But the fact is majority of us(Indians) lack civic sense and no point in blaming politicians, after all they are who we elected.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by stanjohn123

I got curious suddenly about the road accident fatalities between India and Australia as I frequently hear news about accidents in Australia and how they are deeply worried about their citizens deaths and the stronger measures they take each time to ensure their citizens safety.

Once I started researching , I was shell shocked at the stark difference in attitude of both people and the government in both countries.

Hello @stanjohn123

You have raised some valid concerns. I would like to share some of my thoughts and observations.

Here's the inconvenient truth,
Care factor for LIFE as observed on-road:

• Developed economies: My children > My family > Me > Friends and extended family > Neighbours > Strangers > Animals > Enemies
• Developing economies:"Error: Care factor not found" >

That's about it really man. Leave the government, local administration, police, infrastructure etc. I hang my head in disappointment when I see how really well to do families transport their primary school children to school. Guess what? I was also on the wrong side for a few years. I was laughed at when I changed though. Imagine having a child seat in 2014 in India. People thought I went full "western parent."

Some of my personal thoughts about the Australian driving license and policing system,

• Yes, relatively speaking it is better than India.
• However, the driving test needs a major overhaul and should be more like the system in Germany. There's overemphasis on driving over the speed limit, and less about actual useful driving skills.
• The speed related traffic penalties are more about revenue generation and less about road safety.
• Certain visa holders can drive with their overseas licenses, and I'm sorry to say that people from the Indian sub-continent and China have a higher degree of having no clue what they are doing on the road.

End of the day, there are some external elements that are beyond our control to change. I mean, one can buy a Mercedes or Porsche in pretty much any country, but can only safely drive a Mercedes or Porsche the way they are built to be driven in certain countries.

Originally Posted by nandrive

I just drove from Bangalore to Shimog, the highway is under construction, but the completed stretch of roads are top notch compared to Motorway from Sydney to Brisbane(M1).

Hello @nandrive

The 900+ Kms Brisbane-Sydney Motorway isn't a multi-lane Motorway for the entire stretch. You are right. It does have sections that don't even have a median. I can even point you an even worse example, the Bruce Highway in northern Queensland.

However, that's not the point or the right comparison. In fact, let me also say that, the quality of road repairs must improve in Australia. There's no comparison to the US Interstates (Highways) in terms of scale.

Having said that, do check this Bangalore-Shimog highway after five years and report the situation here. I'll be pleasantly surprised if you are saying the this highway meets the norms outlined by @extreme_torque. In fact there's a thread about how road construction quality is systemically compromised in India.

Nostalgia and patriotism aren't worth anything when someone is waiting on a highway after a crash to be airlifted by an Air-Ambulance 200 kms away from the nearest hospital. People are robbing jewellery from crash victims in certain places.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

I am sorry but in what way are some of these so called highways better than Australia?
Here is a guide to road design in Australia. Please show me the same for India and if we have it, why are roads so drastically different within the same city let alone cities and states across India.

https://austroads.gov.au/safety-and-...to-road-design

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by kiku007

[*]However, the driving test needs a major overhaul and should be more like the system in Germany. There's overemphasis on driving over the speed limit, and less about actual useful driving skills.[*]The speed related traffic penalties are more about revenue generation and less about road safety.

I’m not familiar with the specifics of Germany’s driving test system, but when it comes to enforcing speed limits, Germany is just as strict as Victoria or NSW. Aside from the unrestricted sections of the autobahns, driving even 3 km/h (2 mph) over the posted or implied speed limit is considered a punishable offense in Germany which is similar to Australia.

Also, traffic enforcement laws aren’t designed for those who follow the rules, they’re meant to address those who don’t. Based on my experience driving in both Europe (where I’ve spent considerable time) and Australia, I am strongly in favor of strict enforcement of speed limits, especially given the kind of drivers here.

That said, I believe the maximum speed limits on Australian freeways, currently set at 110 km/h for most freeways, could be increased to a more reasonable 120-130 kmph.